IRC log started Sun Jun  4 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0604
-:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by forward.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org])
-:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success
-:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about
-:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from fastlane.openprojects.net)
-:- Your host is fastlane.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from fastlane.openprojects.net)
-:- This server was cobbled together Thu May 18 2000 at 09 32:42 CDT(from fastlane.openprojects.net)
-:- fastlane.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv 
-:- [local users on irc(79)] 8%
-:- [global users on irc(421)] 45%
-:- [invisible users on irc(522)] 55%
-:- [ircops on irc(20)] 2%
-:- [total users on irc(943)]
-:- [unknown connections(0)]
-:- [total servers on irc(28)] (avg. 33 users per server)
-:- [total channels created(357)] (avg. 2 users per channel)
!fastlane.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 119 (118 clients)
!fastlane.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr.
-:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES
-:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES
-:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org "
-:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
-:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Tunes WebDB at http://diktuon.arrow.cx/
-:- topic set by coreyr [Fri Jun  2 10:47:01 2000]
-:- [Users(#tunes:6)] 
[ TUNES     ] [ I440r     ] [ Fare      ] [ eihrul    ] [ abi       ] 
[ coreyr    ] 
-:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.763 secs!!
-:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES
-:- water [water@tnt-10-128.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<eihrul> re
01:10am
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-1.s1.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<water> re
<hcf> re
01:30am
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (sleep)
-:- FineWitMe [asdasd@node-64-248-41-202.dslspeed.zyan.com] has joined #tunes
<water> yo
-:- FineWitMe [asdasd@node-64-248-41-202.dslspeed.zyan.com] has left #tunes []
02:10am
<hcf> abi: OASYS is Open Amiga operating SYStem, a concept OS project at http://www.netreach.net/~fleecy/oasys/index.html
03:10am
-:- FineWitMe [asdasd@node-64-248-41-202.dslspeed.zyan.com] has joined #tunes
-:- FineWitMe [asdasd@node-64-248-41-202.dslspeed.zyan.com] has left #tunes []
-:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes
<hcf> mornin Kyle_L
<Kyle_L> mornin
<Kyle_L> Looks like the Tunes DB is coming along just fine.
04:20am
<Kyle_L> hello all.  May anyone explain the benefits of recursive types?  
04:50am
<Kyle_L> maybe an example from last night:  List n = Cons n (List n)
<Kyle_L> how is it diff from a Java declaration:  public class List {  Object n;  List restOfList; }  ?
05:00am
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-104.s104.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-66.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes
<hcf> Fufie!
<Fufie> hi :)
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp111.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
07:40am
<hcf> eihrul!
<coreyr> me!
<hcf> IRC!!
<coreyr> whats that mean?
<hcf> excited to see IRC
<coreyr> heh
<hcf> in this case, a bit of non-idle-ness on #tunes
<hcf> i'm feign'ing excitement of course
07:50am
-:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes
<hcf> hmm
08:40am
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-128.tscnet.net])
<hcf> abi: SPINE is Safe Programmable Integrated Network Environment at http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/mef/research/spine/
09:10am
-:- hcf_ [nef@207-172-225-126.s126.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf_ is now known as hcf
-:- water [water@tnt-9-117.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> re
<Kyle_L> hi water
09:40am
<water> corey: you must know that i announced diktuon to tunes (not sure if you're on the mlist atm, though)
<coreyr> yes
10:00am
<water> k
10:10am
-:- lar2 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes
<Fare> gakuk
<water> hey
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp111.lvdi.net])
<water> Fare: have you looked at diktuon?
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp111.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff I440r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for I440r[purplecoder.com])
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[adsl-63-204-134-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net])
-:- I440r [mark4@purplecoder.com] has joined #tunes
-:- lar2 is now known as lar1
<Fare> not yet. Just back from a trip to SW of France
<water> SW?
<water> oh southwest
10:20am
<hcf> what was in sw fr?
<Fare> a dinner of the Cercle Frederic Bastiat http://bastiat.net/
<Fare> _great_ stuff
<coreyr> Fare: your mad on that guy.
<coreyr> its hard to read the translated english
<coreyr> its like english, but its with funky grammar
<water> no kidding... it's some kind of fetish
<Fare> you mean, thru Babelfish?
<coreyr> no
<coreyr> like the translated english
<coreyr> he rambles incessantly
<water> heh, sounds like another Frenchman we know ;)
<coreyr> water: have you tried to read it?
<Fare> I don't guarantee the english translations
<coreyr> heh
<Fare> (although the general meaning should be ok)
<water> yeah the rambling part of it comes through loud and clear ;)
<coreyr> heh
<Fare> if you say so. I prefer honest rambling to the downright political fraud Bastiat was fighting.
<coreyr> its so... uhm superfluous.
<Fare> coreyr: what's superfluous?
<Fare> and who do you think FB is addressing?
<water> bleh
<water> why the fsck did we even ask Fare?
10:30am
<coreyr> Fare: honestly
<coreyr> ive never read a piece all the way thru
* coreyr/#tunes glances again
<coreyr> ugh
* Fufie/#tunes yaawns
* coreyr/#tunes needs cliff notes for bastiat
<coreyr> heh
<Fare> cliff notes?
<water> Fare: about your threads entry in the glossary
<Fare> water: what about it (/me goes see it)
<water> you state: "Threads can be dynamically decomposed in sequential or parallel subthreads, that may interact more or less with each other, until the hardware level is reached ..."
<water> you're suggesting three directions of composability, if i read that correctly
<Fare> three?
<water> yes, and i'll explain why
<coreyr> heh
<Fare> I count two combinators plus one atom.
<water> there's the concurrency factor, which involves the "sequential" and "parallel" directions
<water> but!
<water> what should i make of the phrase "until the hardware level is reached ..."?
<water> "...which constitutes the ultimately atomic threads"
<Fare> you combine from base stuff
<water> what are you ever so vaguely suggesting?
<Fare> you decompose down to base stuff
<water> what constitutes "base"?
<water> what determines what "base" is?
<water> the hardware?
<Fare> whatever the hardware provides. On an X86, looks like MOV AX,3053
<water> yuck
<water> that concept is actually in your head and you're not uncomfortable with it?
<Fare> uh?
10:40am
<water> forget it
<water> i have a better chance of a rational discussion with a six-year-old
<Fare> neener neeners!
<water> so, why have not tunes concepts really advanced much in the last 6 years? :)
<Fare> because I've regressed
<water> i don't doubt it
<water> regressed into what?
-:- dalvarez [dalvarez@artus.sc.cs.tu-bs.de] has joined #tunes
<water> hey dalvarez
10:50am
<dalvarez> the same procedure as everytime i get into here, water
<dalvarez> ;)
<water> heh
<dalvarez> how's slate advancing
<water> no, i don't run scripts
<water> once diktuon is fully-working, i'm putting the new docs onto it
<dalvarez> dictuon?
<water> unfortunately there are one or two issues i must resolve before the spec is fully-formalized
<water> see the reference in the topic?
<water> http://diktuon.arrow.cx
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Tunes WebDB at http://diktuon.arrow.cx/
<dalvarez> I was reading the tunes HLL project section on ww.tunes.org but there is no mention of slate...
<water> nope
<water> i don't run HLL
<Fufie> maybe because slate isn't finished..?
<water> hell, i'm not even an official member
<dalvarez> how's that? are there further approaches?
<hcf> Fufie: neither is any of tunes
<water> yes, slate is not finished, but the concepts built can help determine what the HLL should/should not be
<Fufie> hcf: no, I thought of the HLL review page
11:00am
<Fufie> I doubt tunes will ever get implemented
<water> gee thanks for the encouragement
<Fufie> maybe Slate can get a life of it's own though
<water> why are you here exactly?
<water> to make pessimistic comments, is that it?
<Fufie> no, that is the first pessimistic comment I've ever had
<water> lol
<water> sorry, i guess i'm used to hearing them
<Fufie> maybe
<Fufie> you don't seem awfully optimistic either
<water> no one comes here with an inkling of how to help, so they just say it'll never happen
<water> it's hard to be optimistic when you get laughed at in college for the ideas you're presenting
<Fufie> as for how to help, I'll probably help out once there is a base to develop something from, right now (and probably for the last six years) that base has not been made
<water> so why are you here?
<Fufie> I don't know
<Fufie> why are you here?
<coreyr> heh
<water> you didn't contract me or fare to make tunes, so there's no basis for a relationship
<Fufie> you always seem very disappointed with #tunes
* water/#tunes is writing glossary nodes
* Fufie/#tunes writes a pred calc node that to have a relationship there must be a contract
<water> ok so my word choice was bad
11:10am
<water> still, it seems pretty lame to ask for something when you're not giving back, and the thing asked for requires thought, not work
<Fufie> I don't know whether you have any problems with causal relationship, but if a person is able to help in a second stage, the first stage must be done
<water> duh
<Fufie> there is no demand of the first stage, just a statement that a person is willing to help in that second stage..
<water> which is why i request some kind of thoughtful assistance
<water> frankly, then, you're not any more relevant to tunes than any other mlist lurker
<Fufie> maybe not
<water> because there are over 100 people in the exact same position
<Fufie> yes
<water> you just happen to like doing it in real-time
<Fufie> what an asset
<water> heh
<Fufie> over a hundred people who like the initial ideas and who are eager to help out once the foundation is there.. an asset, nothing less
<water> a *potential* asset
<water> more likely if this first stage gets done, that 100 will be 1000
11:20am
<water> so you're better off figuring out how to get my ideas to be more refined
<Fufie> yes, and keeping a cordial tone to these hundred people who all "say" they're willing to help out is probably a good idea, 
<water> or else leaving
<Fufie> gee
<Fufie> an ultimatum
<water> no
<Fufie> "how to get my [water's] ideas to be more refined or else leaving"
<water> i just suggested an idea, that's all... if you have a better one, use it
<Fufie> you really are a good diplomat water
<water> thx for sarcasm
<Fufie> you're welcome
<water> but again you're not quite helping
<water> because i'm chatting with you about something irrelevant
<water> i have a quick fix for it, but it's not productive (me leaving for a bit)
<water> i'm suggesting you can help on your own
<Fufie> oh yeah.. keeping a nice tone with people and valuing the asset there is on the mlist.. irrelevant.. 
<water> so you're still going to complain?
<Fufie> sic
<dalvarez> be nice to each other... this pointless discussion is just causing entropy
<water> c'mon i know you want to help right now
<water> can't you think of something productive to discuss?
<Fufie> not right now, you tire me
<water> heh sorry
11:30am
<Fufie> but I'll consider your ultimatum
-:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (ack)
<water> heh
<water> "People have free choice whenever they *think* they have free choice."
* water/#tunes adds to the meta-programming node in the glossary
<hcf> uhm
<water> um what?
<hcf> meta-program is that
<hcf> or i thot it was supposed to be
<water> huh?
<hcf> perhaps \i mest up
<water> that's the one i'm editing
<hcf> oops
<hcf> misread
<hcf> i saw 'adds the' not 'adds to the'
<water> no worries
* hcf/#tunes kicks himself in the head
<coreyr> akuna matata
11:40am
-:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- dalvarez [dalvarez@artus.sc.cs.tu-bs.de] has joined #tunes
<water> re
<dalvarez> ack
11:50am
<water> ok i've got the meta-program node a little improved
<water> (without muting Fare's stuff)
12:10pm
<water> does anyone have suggestions for how the new nodes should be written, either in general or for specific entries?
<hcf> hmm
<dalvarez> independent specific nodes contained in more general catherogies would be nice
<water> "catherogy"?
<dalvarez> cather/cathe
<dalvarez> typo
* water/#tunes looks it up
<water> hm i can't find it
<dalvarez> category ... damn
<water> oh
<dalvarez> when words are unfit...
<water> er.... which kind of categories do you mean?
<dalvarez>  A general class of ideas, terms, or things that mark
<dalvarez>             divisions or coordinations within a conceptual scheme,   
-:- smoke [smoke@15dyn35.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
<dalvarez> that one
<water> do you suggest we make nodes that contain related terms as a set
<dalvarez> t
<water> i *know* what a category means in the abstract :P
<hcf> perhaps like foldoc does?
<water> what about foldoc?
<water> the subject areas?
<hcf> http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?abstraction sense#2
<hcf> <programming>
<water> ok subject areas
<dalvarez> otherwise you'd end up with thousands of entries on the same level
<water> sure
<dalvarez> which is quite uncomfortable to search and maintain
<water> we already are working on namespaces, but this is definitely something that should be added on top of it
<hcf> virtaul namespaces ;
12:20pm
<hcf> )
<water> or just namespaces emulated in the node structure itself
<dalvarez> the authentification mechanisms could be attached to diffetent levels then
<water> hm
<water> dalvarez: do you have much experience with php?
<dalvarez> no
<dalvarez> forget it
<water> oh well
<water> it was worth a try ;)
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (woosh)
<dalvarez> does it have to be written in php (slashdot e.g. is completely made of perl scripts)
<water> well php is just the front-end to a database
<water> afaik hcf and corey are using some perl
<coreyr> no perl
<coreyr> regex
<water> ah
<coreyr> but hcf makes fun of php comparing it to perl
12:30pm
-:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (tired)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-220.s220.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff I440r: #TUNES (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: EOF from client)
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
<hcf> abi: kylix is see http://www.drbob42.com/kylix/
01:40pm
* water/#tunes attempts to modularize the automatic interfacve generation blurbs
<water> ok it worked
<water> 201 nodes
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> i should re-write it with the info gained from that paper on the relation between graph-rewriting and interface-specification
02:00pm
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (See Yah!)
<water> bbl then
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!)
03:00pm
-:- smklsmkl [sami@ppp107.dial-in.verkkotieto.fi] has joined #tunes
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp210.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES (Ping timeout for coreyr[net255ip95.parklink.com])
-:- SignOff smklsmkl: #TUNES (back tomorrow)
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp210.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp210.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-114.s114.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- mark4 [mark4@purplecoder.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/
-:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes
<coreyr> hrm.
07:00pm
-:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-114.s114.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Tunes WebDB at http://diktuon.arrow.cx/
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp210.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp210.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- water [water@tnt-10-234.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> slate spec
<coreyr> ?
<water> pondering
<coreyr> oh
<water> i'm really damned close
08:50pm
-:- lar1 is now known as WormYourHonor
-:- WormYourHonor is now known as lar1
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-114.s114.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com])
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-9.s9.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<water> damn it, i need someone to talk to
<coreyr> i know someone whose single but shes in florida
<water> bah
<coreyr> shell be in seattle in aug tho
<water> yes, in august
<coreyr> good chance i will be too
<water> only in august?
<water> oh yeah your fscking road trip
<coreyr> well shes from portland, but she has friends in seattle
10:20pm
* eihrul/#tunes whistles.
<water> spec :)
<water> it's like a quarry now
<water> and i'm the big game hunter
-:- mark4 is now known as I440r
<water> this HLL stuff has to be one of the hardest specs to write for
10:30pm
<eihrul> yep, g'night
<water> :P
<eihrul> well, i'm sick :P
<water> i hope i'm not wasting your time with this delay in the spec delivery
<water> you should know that almost all of the slate stuff is decided already... it's the formal theory and the level at which the primitives will be that hasn't been laid out
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Read error to eihrul[usr5-ppp210.lvdi.net]: Connection reset by peer)
<water> bah
10:40pm
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (bang, scatter, shatter: mage)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0605
IRC log ended Mon Jun  5 00:00:00 2000