IRC log started Tue Apr 18 00:00:01 2000 -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[10dyn200.delft.casema.net]) [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0418 -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn200.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: norton.openprojects.net gaarder.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: lewis.openprojects.net gaarder.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from gaarder.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net gaarder.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Steve (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp020.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp20.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp20.lvdi.net] has left #tunes [] [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed LaGgEr (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn82.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed wildthing (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed parks (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- nate37_ [nate@ppp-207-151-70-54.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes water: any updates to ur tutorial? [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com jordan.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) 01:50am [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com jordan.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from jordan.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed abstract (This nick is reserved by another user) not right now 02:20am -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: varley.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: varley.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from tolkien.openprojects.net. 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[openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed alm (This nick is reserved by another user) !ChanServ:*! netgod used GETPASS on channel #forge [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed xeno42 (GHOST command used by xeno43) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[10dyn200.delft.casema.net]) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (error to Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr], closing link) -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes Hum. 07:20am -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn50.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed ravi (This nick is reserved by another user) hum. Can anyone help me write my resume? -:- Bala [Bala@203.197.240.14] has joined #tunes gakuk 08:20am -:- SignOff Bala: #TUNES (Read error to Bala[203.197.240.14]: Connection reset by peer) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed ruiner (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com zsoldos.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com calvino.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) From: Martin Cracauer I'm moving to a smaller house and can't take them with me, so I have to donate my Lisp machines to someone else, in case someone likes two big dinosaurs in his house :-) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com zsoldos.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from zsoldos.openprojects.net. a Symbolics 3600 and a Symbolics 3645 [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net zsoldos.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com calvino.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from calvino.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net calvino.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. 09:10am [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com zsoldos.openprojects.net (Server zsoldos.openprojects.net[192.188.244.13] closed the connection (<>)) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com zsoldos.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from zsoldos.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net zsoldos.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. yeaha! is he in germany or in the states? [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kenny (This nick is reserved by another user) 09:30am germany respond quickly :) if i had the space i'd be off now picking them up 09:40am hum. Where's Hamburg? * Fare/#Tunes goes to www.hamburg.de 09:50am [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed skibum (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Jakes (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp111.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes Gakuk hamburg is in northern germany about the furthest one can be from france :) i'd say an eight hour drive from paris :( can anyone explain to me the US university degrees? -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes Gakuk 10:20am Hello all. I have been working on the possibility that I have "concept fusion" problems with Tunes. -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp111.lvdi.net]) I was hoping that someone would be kind enough to provide feedback on something I have written wrt the above. -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp221.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes what's "concept fusion"? it is the name water gives to the problem newbies have with identifying exctly what Tunes goals are. did you read the FAQ? Yes. what still isn't clear? I have put up a page: http://www.arcavia.com/rd/dbc-html/Tunes.html I am sure that I have got somethings wrong; especially grammer :). what's your gramma to do with that? Is she into computer science, too? I do not think I am unclear, but when speaking to water there seems to be a miscommunication. Since I am new here, it is very likely I got something wrong. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Boarder2 (GHOST command used by Boarder2_) *everyone* have a miscommunication with water. Fare: You are funny ;-) I thought so, but I will not exclude the possibility that misscommunication is due to my arrogance. 10:30am -:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.151] has joined #tunes Working in Tunes requires a bit of arrogance. after all, it's about rethinking computing. Yes, arrogance is a good replacement for moral I don't see it that way how else do you stay motivated despite periods lacking productivity? these are orthogonal issues. I am just joking. Here: :-) :( Has anyone come up with a good model for compilation? The model need not be general. Here is an example: I am considering Bit Fields, they are used in the compile process to provide the series of bytes need by an executable function. Hopfully by modeling Kyle: lots of people have worked out theories for compilation BitFields, and their mapping to physical memory, I can make the compiler totally in the DBC (My little project similar to Tunes). look for papers on the semantics of programming languages 10:40am however, most of them don't handle concurrency properly I've written a paper on a model that handles concurrency I am not looking for semantics of language. Language is irrelevent. I am looking for a model of the part of compilation after the syntax tree is broken down. Kyle: I could comment on your page, but no time now. I am not looking for optimization. what do you mean "broken down" ? ... the syntax tree has been generated. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed chrisns (This nick is reserved by another user) I am looking for the model of laying out the bits in the right order so the machine understands. uh? associating a meaning to the syntax tree, that's semantics. This may be machine specific. How many machines require a series of bytes in memory to run? If you're looking for bitwise generation of assembled binary code, that's but a very lower-level view on semantics currently, all machines require a series of bytes or words of memory to run MMMmmm, maybe yes, the semantics of machine language. But how do I express that the machine code maps to a bit pattern? Kyle: you may try to specify the meaning of binary code, but that's a very hard task. Nice to know the model I want will not exclude an y machines then. Most likely, you'll just assert as correct the low-level parts of your compiler Are you saying the meaning of the words/bytes that make of the code, or the meaning of what it means to be a series of bits? Noooooo!! :) I would have to make a compiler outside my DBC for each machine! Sorry, I have to go. I will keep this channel open for your response. in your page, I'm not sure you get what "migration" means -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving) 10:50am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp221.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp60.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul_ [lee@usr5-ppp19.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp60.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul_ is now known as eihrul [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed technoir (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Jakes (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed [hC] (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us214.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn82.delft.casema.net]) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com jordan.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed compuboy (GHOST command used by compuboy2) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed compuGAMES (GHOST command used by compuboy2) I am back. Are you still there Fare? [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from jordan.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn82.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes 12:20pm [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com jordan.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from jordan.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. 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[openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: norton.openprojects.net gaarder.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp024.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Thunder (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-135-209.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Dazman (GHOST command used by Dazman1) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com jordan.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from jordan.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net jordan.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net mccaffrey.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net mccaffrey.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from mccaffrey.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net mccaffrey.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net mccaffrey.openprojects.net (Read error to mccaffrey.openprojects.net[209.186.235.100]: Connection reset by peer) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: varley.openprojects.net mccaffrey.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from mccaffrey.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net mccaffrey.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp024.wi.centurytel.net]) -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp432.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed nuff (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed nuff (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed nuff (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed abstract (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-14-30.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed BinaryTree (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@*.east-green.ohiou.edu, expiring at 956106343: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Gedanken (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: norton.openprojects.net gaarder.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from gaarder.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net gaarder.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Boarder2 (GHOST command used by Boarder2_) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed gowlin (GHOST command used by gowlin_) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed gowlin (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed jg (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed sigkill (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Bloob (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Thunder (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Robot101 (GHOST command used by RobParis) -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (mux) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Robot101 (GHOST command used by RobParis) -:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.89] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed MDPuckett (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed G3 (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _out[200.201.30.89]) -:- _out [magsilva@sabia.din.uem.br] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed disq (GHOST command used by disq_) -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Angelus (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- _out [magsilva@sabia.din.uem.br] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kyle_L[cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com]) -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes Anyone: what is the diff between the Tunes requirments of hardware independence, and "migrateable agents"? -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving) 06:00pm [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed vortex (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- water [water@tnt-10-139.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey hi * water/#tunes still has email problems to deal with water: I wrote a little, at http://www.arcavia.com/rd/dbc-html/Tunes.html , to see how DBC matches with Tunes. k If you have time I would appreaciate critisism. Fare said that I did not have a good grasp on migration. I had just posted a question before you came in: don't worry i have plenty to give Anyone: what is the diff between the Tunes requirments of hardware independence, and "migrateable agents"? yeah migration is something you would do well to grok water: I suspect you would [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed ^-ReMa-^ (GHOST command used by ^-ReMa-^1) * water/#tunes reads the irc logs -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp19.lvdi.net]) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed ^-ReMa-^ (GHOST command used by ^-ReMa-^1) you think in far too low level terms what does that mean exactly? I would imagine I must to implement. that means you think of the hardware first, and the person involved comes second the point of tunes is that computers should be able to adapt to people, not vice versa 06:10pm i shouldn't have to think about bit-fields once someone has created a general framework for reasoning about their use in an implementation I understand that. My mind is trying to understand how you came to that conclusion. Who has made that general framework? heh it's called mathematics and formal logic or the lambda calculus or whatever I must consider bit fields because the DBC must talk in the language of the machine. The humans talk to DBC. why? so does every other compiler? if i roll DBC over forth, then it doesn't have to manipulate bits at all or joy, for that matter Compilers speak to the DBC. The DBC is a framework that models everything. whatever no framework can model everything i believe Godel had something to say about that true, about forth. I am glossing over that now by implementing a compiler outside DBC. ok i want to address your notion of objects Maybe I should reduce everything down to everything I want to consider. OK. what kind of system can you compare your object model to? (i.e. an example or a description in terms of existing examples, please) I can not seem to answer your question. What aspect of comparison are you looking for? well compare your objects to Smalltalk or Java or C++ objects, for example i don't care about the low-level bit-wise representation, i care about what can be done with the objects Objects in C++, java and smalltalk are very similar. It are the classes that are different. smalltalk's classes are objects, you know Yes, so are Java's (limited) and so are mine. no you can't compare smalltalk's classes to java's but anyway what's different about the classes? The only interesting contrast between SmallTalk class objects and mine are right near the top of the class heirarchy. huh? explain 06:20pm Maybe you can tell me if this has changed, the book I read on the SmallTalk class heirarchy was from the 80's: SmallTalk has meta classes. yes it does SmallTalk meta classes are not objects. yes they are OK, good. but smalltalk is not usable for tunes do you understand why? i suspect not. MMMMmmm, I am trying to remeber if they were objects in the book. You are right I do not know why. well ask on comp.lang.smalltalk I Know why smalltalk is not usable for DBC. they always give good answers, i've found why isn't it good for DBC? Why would comp.lang.smalltalk know why they are not sutable for Tunes? no, cls would know how metaclasses are objects again, why isn't smalltalk good for DBC? Is SmallTalk still calling metaclasses "metaclasses"? yes, the smalltalk environment is still the same for the most part The messaging in SmallTalk appears to be grouped wrong. the grouping (message categories) is just a UI thing it has nothing to do with object semantics How can I explain? I am not concerned with the message heirarchy well let me clarify by saying that message categories are not like java interfaces neither am i do you know what a message category is? No. then what are you talking about? For instance, what object is responsible for '+'? + is a method in the class Number, Integer, Real, etc it has one argument besides self Passing messages to numbers for addition do not belong to those classes. heh It may belong to Number. of course you have a much better idea, then? perhaps multi-methods? ok now you're obviously not grokking why this is so in smalltalk Consider integer + real. What object has the handler? the first object the one which is "self" Then how about real + integer? 06:30pm it receives the message and looks up the method to do the appropriate thing again, the first object this is a basic fact of smalltalk syntax But we are doing the same thing in both. Why are different objects handling the add? the receiver always implements the method [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@hse-kitchener-ppp*.sympatico.ca, expiring at 956118596: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. because the message-passing metaphor forces it Just because "the receiver always implements the method" it does not mean I have to agree. that IS the oo paradigm otherwise you have chaos ;) That is the oo paradigm for SmallTalk. heh the one you have limited yourself to Are you saying that there is only on oo paradigm for message passing? no, i'm saying that you have to rethink message-passing in order to do what you've described otherwise you'll just piss everyone off by claiming that you support oo and that is what I have done. I will not piss anyone off, I can give them lame old oo message passing syntax if they want. well i DO know of ways that oo can handle what you're talking about one way is to have multi-methods as in CLOS another is to do a similar thing in slate Same here, I just do not agree with SmallTalks message passing, that is all. i think you're spouting nonsense there's nothing wrong with how smalltalk does that other than your own irrational feelings have you actually tried Squeak? it does a lot of DBC-like things No. If I tried everything then would get nothing done. I am sure it does. well you should always try the few very relevant things But you can't write a program compile a version of itself can it? well it uses ANSI-C as a back-end right now but there are smalltalk compilers out there and it does contain its VM's own source code When it can compile methods to native code on the fly, I will be happy.. well there's a JIT framework in the works that should get released this year Too bad it was not written in Squeak it's cross-platform, so its difficult to implement 06:40pm who said it wasn't? I want bit fields to solve that problem. wtf is your obsession with bit-fields? It is my current programming challenge. yeah whatever people graduated from punched cards as a way to represent computer memory years ago squeak models bit-fields quite nicely already it uses them to represent the object memory as well as the graphics rendering subsystem of the VM That is very good. I think I read that. yeah migration is a much bigger concept than you realize, i think Yea. I hope you can help me here. and the choice of language deeply affects whether migration is possible Why would that be? because migration is about the ability to re-use code automatically, without re-writing it in any direction at all, not just between machines Why would JVM code be bad for this? lol because bytecodes are hard to automatically adapt to new uses why you have to re-write the code almost every time you add a new feature to a large system i'm actually reading a book on this (the refactoring book, actually) re-write the JVM code? yeah because the source code only does one thing well you can't make it work abstractly enough for tunes Sure, but if you have a JVM to native mapping what is the prob? oh god i'm not talking about how to run the code i'm talking about how to get code to map to what the user wants That does not appear to be a migration issue, that is an "intent" issue. no, that IS migration (mmmm intent is good for migration) do you see anything in tunes docs about intent? btw f*** intent :) OK, swap "intent" for "migration" thanks yeah so you don't feel like an idiot 06:50pm do you grok partial-evaluation? or lambda-abstraction? the (forgive spelling) currying? the spelling is fine, but no not just currying no, trying to come up with the defintion of them, but can not. I can follow thier use though. *ahem* the glossary? GREAT IDEA! you're too easy to impress. that's a bad sign yep it has the good entry i remember hm it's probably time for me to re-read the site again -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp170.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes ok, got partial evaluation re you read the whole thing just now? and got it the first time? lambda abstraction is not there. yes it is, under abstraction er no wait well it sort of is yeah lambda calc entry is there how is lambda abstraction than the abstraction of functions> how is lambda abstraction DIFFERENT than the abstraction of functions> btw your idea of oo makes partial-eval very difficult in what way difficult? it is much the same good, knew them all along. I have a horrible memory for names. although the lambda calculus per se has no symbols, which few people seem to acknowledge well, partial eval in oo requires function-like properties 07:00pm btw your stuff on reflection is bullshit in what way? i mean, it's too vague to contrast it with many other systems which are distinct from each other and the "all aspects" thing is impossible Thanks. What section is this in? at the top, man under "reflective" btw, describe "normalization from db theory". there are two other terms i know of called normalization and i don't think you refer to those ok [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Belgarion (This nick is reserved by another user) btw, I am wrting these comments down, not replying now. oh yeah and your idea of higher-order needs work what do you suppose I wrong. I does look like I have a lack of detail. no it looks like you're confused read the higher-order entry in the glossary as well as "abstraction level" and "abstraction inversion" 07:10pm "higher-order" does need some work. you're hyping DBC it seems in a lot of places you're taking ordinary programming and making it seem like it's just as good as what we want in tunes That is probably subconcious. well you should probably work on cleaning that up. i learned the hard way Does Tunes have a list of "what's wrong" with other systems and languages? "This recursivness results in the appearance of an infinity of objects in the system, DBOS supports this virtual infinity already; it supports fine grained composition." explain the above quote please Kyle_L: the review sub projects yes read the language review and we do criticize the usual idea of oo you should look at everything in review * eihrul/#tunes is liking this pjlester paper. mostly for the concepts, of course, don't try everything yeah i found it pretty interesting too notice tunes glossary covers OO thanks btw, like Fare said, every programming language is in a sense a "bit-field" specification the more that the language can leave to the implementation the better, however * water/#tunes installs yet another new mail client -:- nicks [nick@co693875-a.kico1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes hi nicks heya water ;) having a good night? it's going all right 07:20pm teaching newbies can be quite informative, actually hehehehehe feel like teachin another one? of course i used to tutor quite a lot, so i'm used to it *grin* trying to set up my sound card... and havingahell ofa time... well, i have to go run an errand in a bit, but i can get you started uh ;) sorry, wrong #tunes * water/#tunes points at the topic ahhhhhh heheh..... try #linpeople been hoping channels.... [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net aramata.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) *grin* will do ;) moves too damn fast in those big rooms.. lol thanks tho ;) well there are plenty of linux help channels water: if you are leaving, thanks. yeppers ;) take it easy folks ;) -:- nicks [nick@co693875-a.kico1.on.wave.home.com] has left #tunes [] no i'm not leaving, just afk'ing ok it will only be 15 minutes or so I will be unconcious by then. btw, squeak is working a lot on distribution of objects and projects right now i'm on their mlist.... i soak up ideas that way I just started the same. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net aramata.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from aramata.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net aramata.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. wel please keep looking deeply into the tunes site use the sitemap to get the biggest picture and definitely look at all the review categories 07:30pm [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@oirsa.org.gt, expiring at 956122140: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us712.javanet.com] has joined #tunes re hcf hoy water The sitemap should be a heirarchy. Who is reponsible for the site? educating the newbies today there is a site docs hierarchy which is separate Tril although i think you can get cvs access from him in order to do the updating yourself and i honestly think content (i hate that word) is more important than format I find the site is badly layed out. The content can be absorbed by newbies much faster with better layout. Just think of all those questions you would not have to answer! well, do it and then present your idea to the list but don't present the idea first, please Maybe I will. the last thing we need is yet another suggestion for improving the site without the suggestor following through :) what app is used to hold the site now? How big is it? *ahem* ask Tril thanks. i hate that stuff I find it relaxing. what web-site maintenance? yes. what a waste of time what is relaxing? 07:40pm hm going outside for a walk or meditating or many other things not involving computers with stupid software on them [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@*.brads.net, expiring at 956122871: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net G-line active for awe32[client-151-201-27-137.brads.net] well, bbiaf 07:50pm -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-135-209.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes hmm, writing graph reduction stuff in Haskell is pretty fun :) really? 08:10pm well, because it is so trivial... oh it should be the same with Slate in that case well, yeah, but three lines of haskell :) show me hold on k thx just scratching down code as i read through it... Haskell? abi: Haskell? Haskell is lazy purely functional programming language at http://www.haskell.org/ Ah oh bleh damned notepad doesn't read this properly yeah, hates linefeeds... Use wordpad -:- lar1 is now known as lar-food say, what about that slate evaluator? >:) in a bit, i'm readin' pj... ok if i'm still reading by 9:30 you can have abi beep me and make me start on it... i think if i didn't remind you, you'd never get on it well, it was the sgi... yeah first it's this, and then it's that, and pretty soon you're 35 with 2.5 kids, a dog, yada yada ;) save the kids and dog part... 08:20pm yeah this code is pretty damned clear [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@modemcable193.48-201-24.que.mc.videotron.net, expiring at 956125238: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. of course, it'd be even simpler in Maude ;) well, still need to learn that... that's an endeavor for the summer, though >:) maude is not that hard at all i know, but finding time is yeah and i guess it's my job to make sure to cover all the language concepts and distill them for you as you need them which reminds me, it's time to work on the tutorial again [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net d^2 adding GLINE for bbs@develop.21cn.com, expiring at 956122021: Excess clones (again!) !spice_urk:*! Who *is* that idiot ? !dent:*! Well, I don't know.. its the third time I do that - I am uneasy with that many clones 08:30pm -:- yinzen [klw@cx158568-a.okcnw1.ok.home.com] has joined #tunes hm brb (reboot) hey yz brb hello -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- water [water@tnt-10-155.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes water: earlier in the logs you said ... " if i roll DBC over forth, then it doesn't have to manipulate bits at all ok anyone got a hot topic? what does it mean to 'roll DBC over forth' ? mm ok i exagerated a bit to implement an object system on top of forth ahhh add what makes DBC distinct to what forth allready provides okay I understand your point there now, thank you. np 08:50pm anything else i can do for you? not in the immediate, I am still catching up in the logs. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed gonadman (This nick is reserved by another user) 09:00pm welp, afk for a bit... then onto the infamous eval.lisp-the-sequel heh k yz: how much of the tutorial have you read? all of it, unless more has been added since yesterday ... let me check hm i didn't add very much yesterday 09:10pm a little ... but it has succedded in confusing me a bit, hehe how so? well the result object's parent slot is where the value is, but the result object has a result slot! what is the purpose of that? well the result object only inherits the result slot of its parent and its parent *is* the value * water/#tunes decides to put more explanation into that paragraph thank you... well did i explain it well enough just now or do you need more? a bit more .. so the result object inherits its slots from its parent, which is the value, so 4 is an object and that objects result slot is what you call to actually return that value? no the recursivness of it is starting loose me there's a point beyond which results are not called for every object (method) invocation, you receive an object in response that object *is* a result slot, but *it's* result slot is not invoked implicitly you just kind of stop there the rest is there for completeness sake? well, that's what the implicit call to result is... what rest? the fact that the 4 has a result slot as well well, don't worry about 4 for now :) hehe, k basically a lot of objects have themselves as a result which i also need to explain ahh, okay that is what i needed 09:20pm well it's not a simple idea in the actual implementation, but i'll need tim to write up the idea * yinzen/#tunes nods um s/tim/time/ forget about tim, we don't need him anyway ;) heh, well thanks for the explanation, I am off to bed, goodnight[ k -:- yinzen [klw@cx158568-a.okcnw1.ok.home.com] has left #tunes [] [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: tolkien.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: varley.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from asprin.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. 09:30pm ok, here we go woohoo! * water/#tunes finds new inspiration in the inheritance entry of the tunes glossary hm i'd bet i can find a good way that it fits into slate of course the ideas he's using need a lot of refining in the details, the "how to" * eihrul/#tunes nods that building meta-evaluators and such is a mentally recursive process. :) s/nods/notes 09:40pm heh did you back yourself into a corner coding up the evaluator? :) more like backing myself into a corner in a round room... lol [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@hse-kitchener-ppp*.sympatico.ca, expiring at 956130185: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. hm scheduling computations in a lazy environment presents problems, doesn't it? or is it just a different approach to the same semantics? -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-27.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes re nate 09:50pm -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-27.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: varley.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: varley.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: varley.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) hm most of the reflection review links are dead [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: tolkien.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from asprin.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. whoa. an idea for squeak to have the mlist server implemented in squeak and to have built-in end-user support for the mlist in squeak images okay, i think i have apply and lookup working... cool which use slate objects that don't exist yet that use apply and lookup :) of course the primitives mentioned in the papers on reflection 10:10pm uh oh. i think i found a fallacy in a part of the tunes glossary it's a small one, and only Fare and i would care either way, though in order to document it a bit, it's under "security" in the last paragraph, where Fare suggests that formal methods can "make all axioms explicit" that's simply not possible unless used in a very limited, formal-systems-only sense and it ignores the existence of the aspectual of human interaction which formal systems can't encapsulate heh oh well. i 'll save it for later ;) 10:30pm how goes it, eih? getting close to testing it just need to write interface code :) oh good, no problems or hitches then? well, i haven't run it yet, we'll see :) oh great ;) [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) ya know, you never stop learning, no matter what you're looking at, as long as you want to learn i think i figure out quite a bit every day [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from tolkien.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. 10:40pm [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Net junction: varley.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from asprin.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net asprin.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. hey maybe someday we'll be well-known consultants for tunes systems well, of course i'll work on arrow, not tunes ;) okay... time to test cool. pass me the code actually no hold on, i really need to eat well, it doesn't work yet :) (debugging phase) i'll return in about a half hour. if you get the code done by then or call it quits, just dcc me and i'll auto-accept or better yet, just post it on your tunes account * water/#tunes -> afk (eating) 10:50pm ok its half working lookup works apply doesn't :) any clue why? tracing through it now Error in function C::%VERIFY-ARGUMENT-COUNT: Wrong argument count, wanted 1 and got 2. only thing compiler is telling me :) hm 11:10pm -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp052.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed \ (This nick is reserved by another user) yeah time to trace indeed funny thing is i'm not using many functions that could possibly be suspect i suppose VAC is a part of the reader eeg... i should have known :) eh? what's that? (defvar) i'm gathering 404 fixes for tunes-rev-reflection, which i'll post to review@ should PEPM'97 link to http://www.cs.kun.nl/fpl/icfp-pepm97/ ? hcf: cool thx yeah eih: use scheme for the (define)'s :) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed LaGgEr (This nick is reserved by another user) well, (defvar) prevents redefinition (defparameter) is more debugging/development friendly Erik Ruf's thesis is mentioned w/o directly linking to it you have the url? is this it, http://www.research.microsoft.com/~ruf/files/thesis.ps ? yeah k i forgot about that paper 11:20pm [openprojects]!king.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@modemcable193.48-201-24.que.mc.videotron.net, expiring at 956136046: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. hm maybe i should go to stanford after the navy abi FUSE is a project studying issues in partial evaluation at http://www.research.microsoft.com/~daniel/fuse-memos/README.html hm pretty old papers, all the same does tunes-rev have a PE section other than the one at the top of the refl page? nope although the glossary entry is pretty big 11:30pm -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us247.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf okay, this is good.... yes? *almost* working heh what's left to fix? hrmm, well, actually... it is not something so much to fix... but a decision wrt semantics wha'ts that? the apply part of the protocol is actually kind of foggy er hrmm, n'm i think i can get it :) yeah i think it's probably got a pretty clear equivalent in the lisp form [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0419 IRC log ended Wed Apr 19 00:00:01 2000