IRC log started Sat Apr  1 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0401
<nate37> help names
<nate37> -yes
12:40am
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<nate37> hello
<nate37> watsup
<nate37> oops
01:30am
<Fufie> hum
<nate37> what?
<Fufie> hum
* Fufie/#tunes hums
* nate37/#tunes hums some tunes
02:20am
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<smoke> freshmeat is hilarious today :)
04:10am
<Fufie> smoke: the win2k entry? :)
<Fufie> very nice :)
05:30am
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<hcf> hoy bineng
<bineng> hey there
<hcf> anything new?
06:20am
<bineng> Well, I have this lisp project in school coming up.
<bineng> You're familiar with Forth?
<hcf> probly not enuf to be useful
<hcf> whatcha need?
<bineng> I'm thinking of doing a forth interpreter and/or compiler in lisp, see..
<bineng> but I don't really know much Forth, so I'd need to know that it's not too hard.
<hcf> heres one in java, http://world.std.com/~wware/agj/fj.html
<bineng> ah, I'll have a look
<hcf> also links to lisp in java ;)
<bineng> heh
<bineng> hilarious
<bineng> is Forth really "a flexible scripting language"?
<hcf> big list of foo in java things @ http://grunge.cs.tu-berlin.de/~tolk/vmlanguages.html
<hcf> dunno
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<hcf> rares: see the logs for the beginning of the discussion
<hcf> bineng: http://aegis.vgnet.mcs.kent.edu/~vmartin/f_main/f_main.html
<bineng> ahh
06:30am
<rares> where the logs?
<hcf> abi: logs?
<abi> logs are #tunes logs at http://www.tunes.org/files/irc
<hcf> bin: (in case its not linked to on the above pages ;) yet another forth in java @ http://www.well.com/user/jax/SoftWoehr/
<bineng> uh.. lotsa info indeed
<bineng> Forth seems pretty easy to do, but perhaps there's some even better language to try?
<hcf> u want a challenge?
<hcf> a rare desire these days
<bineng> not so much a challenge as something that might produce an interesting result
<hcf> have u seen slate and eihrul's prototype of it in lisp?
<bineng> I had a glance.. not that I understood it, though
<rares> does he have the latest?
<rares> stupid question
<rares> has he passed out the latest
<hcf> eihrul stopped (paused?) working on slate to work on dolphin
<rares> well thben next release is coming soon
<bineng> what does "pick" do in Forth?
<hcf> bin: forth.org for a ref
<hcf> icuc, A Lisp through the Looking Glass @ http://www.cb1.com/~john/thesis/thesis.html
<hcf> abi: icuc?
<abi> icuc is In Case U Care
<hcf> ^ for those who didnt know
06:40am
<bineng> ok ok, I'll look at that /too/ :)
<hcf> abi: cltl is Common Lisp the Language, 2nd Edition online at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Web/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html
06:50am
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<eihrul> hcf: paused is correct
<hcf> as i hoped
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes http://www.tunes.org || Slate http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Interview w/ water http://www.linux.com/interviews/20000322/46/
07:00am
<hcf> abi: slash
<abi> SDHLs 06:54-010400: Thomas Sterling su Beowulf | Ythonpay 1.6 Eleaseray Eduleschay | Yet Unuzeer Internet Treckeeng Ixplueet | Making Music With Linux : Notation And Alphabet Soup | Internet Spring Cleaning | Sony's Palm PDA | MIT Building Hack Ethos | Linux PDA w/Voice Recognition | German Robot Klaus Passes Driving Test | Handspring Files For IPO.
<bineng> cool feature
07:10am
<hcf> bineng: theres talk on #dolphin if u care
<rares> abi, rpn?
<abi> i haven't a clue, rares
<hcf> abi: tell bineng about #dolphin logs
<bineng> heh
<hcf> abi: rpn is Reverse Polish Notation aka postfix notation, "1 2 +"
07:20am
<hcf> abi: bryan ford is the mach/thread migration/xpk guy, homepage at at http://www.sleepless.com/people/baford/
08:00am
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<hcf> its nice how #tunes has more ppl in it then #dolphin but less talk
<Downix> I know
<Downix> dolphin is more developed too
<hcf> abi: bryan ford =~ s/at at/at/
<abi> OK, hcf
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08:10am
<Downix> so, anyone written anything of tunes yet?
08:30am
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<Kaufmann> _Man_, Slashdot is sucky today
<Downix> it's april fools day
<Downix> hey kaufmann, I've realized... Windows is the true way
<Downix> 8)
<Kaufmann> it says something about me that I can't get moderated up except on 0104...
<Downix> slashdot is pulling an april fools joke
<Downix> all anaonymous cowards are getting 5's and greater
<Kaufmann> uhrm... they aren't.
08:50am
<Kaufmann> _I_'ve got a 4 on the latest story, and it's the second-highest post on the page
<Downix> they were at midnight, they've since corrected
<Downix> 8)
<smkl> how much karma do you have now? is it still decreasing?
<Kaufmann> it's at 54 now... still 5 points lower than my record score
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09:00am
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<Kaufmann`> hellfire and damnation
<ult> damnfire and hellnation
<Kaufmann`> heh
09:10am
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<rares> abi, the Forth is at http://www.theforthsource.com/
<abi> ...but forth is at http://www.forth.org...
<rares> abi, the The Forth Guide is at http://www.theforthsource.com/
09:30am
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<water> hey bin
<water> hi all
<eihrul> re
<water> hello, dortmunde
<water> hi eih, what's going?
<eihrul> just pondering over my compiler-to-be, core showed up... uneventful, really
<water> hm is bin still here?
<eihrul> he was, no idea about now
<bineng> I'm here.. or something
<water> anything you'd like to talk about?
<bineng> I was reading about Forth, I'm trying to find out whether to make a Forth interpreter as my lisp project
<water> well a forth interpreter is pretty simple
<eihrul> well, doesn't that sort of exclude forth?
<bineng> exclude forth?
<eihrul> "lisp project"... "forth"
<water> eih: the implementation of the forth interpreter will be *on* *lisp*
<bineng> ah no, a lisp program that evaluates forth code
<eihrul> ah
<eihrul> quite simple then
11:10am
<bineng> I don't know enough about forth yet, if I pick it as project I have to learn about Forth too
<water> yep you inherit most of the features of the lisp environment
<water> well forth is a very simple language
<bineng> what important elements are there? the stack, the vocabulary..
* water/#tunes nods
<water> two stacks, though
<bineng> I'd need some standard functions.. or are they called "words" here?
<bineng> two stacks?
<water> yep words
<eihrul> return stack and data stack
<water> bin: http://www.forth.org
<eihrul> the return stack corresponds to the C-ish interpretation of a stack
<eihrul> whereas the data stack does not store any frame information and can be used arbritrarily
<bineng> water, yes, I'm reading about it
<bineng> what data types are there?
<eihrul> the machine word >:)
<water> bleh i can't keep up with the conversations on the tunes mlist at all :(
<water> not that i can't read them, i just don't have time to interact
<bineng> I haven't even got to read it lately
<bineng> eihrul: So there are no floating point numbers or so?
<eihrul> rmm, there is just data...
<eihrul> you have floating point operations
<bineng> I'd probably have to make an interactive Forth, sorta a command prompt.. is that done *in* Forth?
<water> usually
<eihrul> eeg... bad memories of the forth implementation i was writing in basic in CS class...
<bineng> so then I wouldn't have to write it in lisp.
<water> heh in basic
<bineng> oh? :)
<bineng> tell ous aaall about it
<bineng> us
<water> bin: probably not, although the forth implementation should of course be interactive to support it
<water> brb
<eihrul> it is the only interpreter/compiler/etc available in the class...
<eihrul> have to work with the cards you're dealt...
<bineng> so how did it turn out?
<eihrul> class ended before i finished debugging it :)
<eihrul> it just interpreted lexer tokens directly, but almost worked
<bineng> heh
<bineng> A nuisance I see is that I have to pass the stack around all the time. Oh wait, does this mean I have to pass *two* stacks around?
11:20am
<eihrul> "pass?"
<eihrul> your professor is not allowing (setf)? :)
<water> bin: it's just like call/cc
<bineng> for the last assignment, I was told that I couldn't use a global variable
<eihrul> ah... well, you can cheat that
<eihrul> since you can define functions within functions
<water> yep
<bineng> go on..
<eihrul> write your whole forth interpreter within the body of a function that returns the functions in an interface
<eihrul> you can use any variables within the body of the enclosing function as if they were global to all functions by which you wrote the interpreter :)
<bineng> is that a closure?
<eihrul> yes
<eihrul> though, your prof would probably be mad :)
<bineng> sounds neat
<bineng> but how would I invoke it?
<eihrul> the forth interpreter?
<bineng> yes
<eihrul> (defun forth-interpreter () (let (globals-here) (labels (implementation-here) #'forth-start)))
<bineng> would I list all functions that need the variables in the labels?
<eihrul> yes, but it is... a hack
<bineng> and there's no better way?
<eihrul> well, you could pass the stack around
<bineng> not both?
<eihrul> (s)
<eihrul> and if your forth engine is just a (case) construct, won't make a difference anyhow :)
<bineng> dunno yet
11:30am
<water> hm the mail conversation on tunes is degrading quite a bit
<eihrul> pretty much
11:40am
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<water> does anyone think it'd be a good idea to re-vamp the slate docs presentation?
<bineng> what?
<eihrul> atleast a topic directory
<water> well i have a lot of stuff to add to the site, and it's getting a bit dis-organized
<water> hm
<water> what level would the topics be at, though?
<bineng> I haven't looked much at the site lately, mostly seen that its looks have changed
<water> and do you suggest topic overlap in order to help cover the ideas better?
<water> bin: have you checked out syntax and semantics lately?
<bineng> no
<eihrul> water: the titles you have for each sub-section of the semantic page would work
<water> hm ok
12:50pm
<water> those titles give basic concepts... should the individual topics pages go from the abstract to fully concrete, you think?
<eihrul> well, i was just more thinking of indexing the semantics page
<water> btw, everything in slate ties in to meta-behavior, so it makes it a bit tough to explain concepts that require it
<water> hm
<water> ok this makes sense, since i have concepts explained in a distributed way right now
<water> perhaps i should change "details" as well, since it has little content
<water> any ideas about "details"?
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<eihrul> a database indexable by arbitrary subject? :)
<water> :P
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<water> well, if tril gets the tunes glossary done ;)
* eihrul/#tunes afks to read book.
01:00pm
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<water> who the hell is that?
<bineng> heh, who knows
<bineng> funny name, though
<water> well he was in tunes for a few hours, but never said anything, not even when i said "hi" to him
<water> or she
01:20pm
* Fufie/#tunes yawns
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<hcf> water: u working on slate's webdocs?
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<water> yes
<water> any suggestions?
<hcf> a news/status page 
<water> not much of a status yet :)
<hcf> what ur doing now, what u'l be doing next
<water> i suppose
<hcf> a glossary ;)
* water/#tunes sighs
02:40pm
<water> got particular entries in mind?
<hcf> hmm, if concepts are difficult to separate, a glossary isnt the solution
<water> any objections to moving the topics in semantics up to 'details'?
<water> separate pages per aspect of the language
<hcf> k
<water> with cross-links and such
<hcf> yes more links
<hcf> otherwise it mite as well be a paper
<water> hm but not too many cross-links to make sure i can maintain it
* water/#tunes begins pushing around a lot of html
02:50pm
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<water> bleh what should i do with these 'language features' entries?
<water> (on details)
<hcf> hmm
<water> they should probably get merged into faq and the list of topics
<hcf> a faq should be a Q&A version of a TOC
<hcf> where the A is a short answer blurb which links to the appropriate page
03:10pm
<hcf> and a non-answer-like version of the blurb used in the faq can be used as the intro to the page
<water> hm
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03:20pm
<water> this'll take some time to make presentable
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<water> wb
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03:30pm
<hcf> what hapnd to beholder?
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<water> i don't know
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03:40pm
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<AlonzoTG> seen downix
<AlonzoTG> abi: seen downix?
<abi> downix was last seen on IRC 6 hours, 58 minutes and 37 seconds ago, saying: 8) [Sat Apr  1 08:50:19 2000]
<AlonzoTG> =\
03:50pm
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<water> well i'll bbl tonight
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04:10pm
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<hcf> hihum
<hcf> s/hi/ho/
<Downix> hey hcf
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<hcf> hoy
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05:00pm
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<mog> hi
<Downix> hey
05:10pm
<mog> Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and weigh only 1.5 tons. 
<mog> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<mog> March 1949 issue of Popular Mechanics
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<eihrul> yes, us and our monotithic microprocessors...
<mog> they have that quote on qubit.com
<Downix> Why doesn't anyone make a microkernel processor?
<Downix> 8)
<XeF4> Downix: too much bus overhead
<eihrul> exoprocessors!
<mog> in response to 'when will quantum computers be practical'
05:20pm
<Downix> quantum computers won't ever be practical on-their-own
<mog> why not?
<Downix> mog:  the set-up time, the fact that the act of reading the calc destroys the quantum calculating engine... all of these things make quantum computers a novelty.
<mog> there are algorithms to deal with that...
<mog> working quantum computers have been demonstrated that calculate useful things
* eihrul/#tunes ponders the irc computer.
<eihrul> it would utilize millions of monkeys typing on their keyboards world-wide to perform massively parallel calculations
<mog> qubit.com describes the quantum search algorithm and how to deal with getting the result of calculations without disturbing the quantum state
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<Downix> mog:  I've read the papers.  You're more likely to get results from bio-comps than quantum comps
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05:30pm
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<mog> welp
<mog> im out
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05:40pm
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<tcn> ult, you ever used Netbsd?
<ult> yep
<tcn> are you using it now? :)
<ult> not on this box
<tcn> any trouble reading other OS's partitions?
<tcn> (maybe I'm just confused about the device numbering)
<tcn> in linux I get hda1-hda4, in freebsd it's ad0s1-s4... netbsd is on 4.
<ult> well
<ult> not particularly
<ult> ext2fs is kinda uh
<ult> well
<ult> =)
<tcn> yeah, but freebsd is allright.
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<ult> fbsd has a different fs than netbsd
<tcn> right
<tcn> any idea how to mount the fbsd or linux partitions?
<tcn> or even the dos partition
<tcn> I'm not copying all the netbsd files to floppy..
<ult> mount -t msdos /dev/whatever /mnt/whatever
<ult> don't mess with fbsd or linux
<ult> bad things can happen
<tcn> but what's /dev/whatever?
<tcn> wd0a=netbsd
07:20pm
<tcn> nevermind if ya don't know :)
<tcn> what do you think of netbsd anyway?
<ult> ack
<ult> sorry i'm afk semi
<ult> netbsd has very messed up partitioning
<ult> see
<tcn> hehe
<ult>  /dev/wd0a isn't necessarily a normal netbsd partition
<ult> It's a netbsd chunk
<ult> that contains lots of subpartitions
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<tcn> IDE drives won't show up as anything besides wd*, right?
<nate37> hello
<tcn> hey nate
<nate37> I'm finally running in linux... WAHHOOOO!
* nate37/#tunes does a little, happy, yet silly dance
<tcn> cool
<tcn> now try netbsd :)
* ult/#Tunes thwaps nate37
07:30pm
* nate37/#tunes stops dancing
<tcn> netbsd is the most difficult OS i've installed lately, except for the recent cLIenUX release I deleted.
<nate37> I'm using a winmodem too
<nate37> heh
<nate37> u like clienux?
<tcn> in some ways
<nate37> small?
<tcn> yeah, small and quick.. but I don't like the 'descriptive' pathnames (like "configure" instead of "etc")
<ult> well
<ult> older netbsd was worse
<ult> er
<ult> openbsd
<ult> old openbsd you installed entirely by hand
<ult> your only editor was 'ed'
<tcn> heh
<ult> you did -everything- by hand
<tcn> even ed is better than vi!
<nate37> I like vi :)
<ult> d99d
<ult> d00d too
<ult> ed is just a real-time-updating vi
<eihrul> ed is better than vi?
* eihrul/#tunes hmms?
* eihrul/#tunes boggles.
<nate37> yeesss... got fetchmail to work :) :) :)
<tcn> either is better than EDLIN
<nate37> heh... yeah... never got that to work
<nate37> I shouldn't have to use a smtp server because of sendmail... i think
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07:40pm
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<nate37> re tcn
<tcn> ok, i'm back.
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<tcn> I don't run sendmail in clienux.. I use this crude little smtp-batch-send program
<tcn> sends it to my isp's smtp server
<nate37> is that good or bad?
<tcn> for a small client box it's good
<tcn> but my isp uses a Mac mailserver
<tcn> it's crap.
<nate37> heh
<tcn> them Ithacans and their macs, I don't understand them..
<nate37> don't like macs? (I don't, but havn't used then muched)
<tcn> it's not a server platform
<nate37> ok
<tcn> it's slow, and there's not well-developed mail software like sendmail
<tcn> heh
07:50pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0402
IRC log ended Sun Apr  2 00:00:03 2000