IRC log started Mon Feb 14 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0214 -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us917.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port92.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- water [water@tnt-9-153.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hm noisy people gone :) me happy hey i got a url for newbies http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/andrew/writing/lang.html not sure if there's a good key for abi to link this under, but at least let me know what you think of it it doesn't quite fit under "review", unless tunes has taken up the reviewing of reviews lately without letting me know :) anyone listening? * hcf/#tunes is ok (if he counts) I am lar1: u dont count ;) lar: read this you being the nub programmer here nub? non-useful body Ummm whatever abi: pl intro is at http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/andrew/writing/lang.html ok that works lar: you don't know enough yet thats true that's my point not that you're incapable, you just need to learn Correct You made it sound which makes you a nub :) like I had no potential oh lar1: can u bend a spoon? 12:20am heh * water/#tunes is reminded of a good koan hcf: There is no spoon Ohh Ohh! good web page! heh. pop culture to help with expanding the minds of youth :) Huh? Oh Heh hm. toontalk provides excellent metaphors for teaching programming concepts toontalk? www.toontalk.com i'll write up a blurb for abi -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from forward.openprojects.net [12:25am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] abi toontalk is a visual dynamic language for concurrent constraint logic programming at http://www.toontalk.com/ doh! -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com forward.openprojects.net -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us917.javanet.com] has joined #tunes abi toontalk is a visual dynamic language for concurrent constraint logic programming at http://www.toontalk.com/ * eihrul/#tunes ponders how many buzzwords were left out of that description. heh well i felt no one would take "toontalk" seriously unless i put in the buzzwords besides, they are all correct terms for the language 12:30am heh. but of course the thing sucks resources like crazy :) eihrul: so do my syntactical namespace operators seem so crazy now or do you still need to sleep on it? :) sleep heh -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[63.28.86.95]) it probably needs some improvements anyway -:- lar1 [larman@63.27.230.158] has joined #tunes so don't just blindly accept it, ok? :) 12:40am -:- water_ [water@tnt-9-153.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-9-153.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- water_ is now known as water hm some guy named moebius was here saturday night Ok... 12:50am hm i'm wondering just what people will need of namespaces it probably won't be too complex maybe a simple hierarchy will be enough, possibly extended to a graph in some cases, though i can't imagaine what that'd be good for 01:00am -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (RavenOS! Yeah!) -:- water [water@tnt-9-153.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-9-153.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes anyone here? kind of geez why are you still up? good question i don't quite know i mean everyone knows i'm nuts, but *you*? :) -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf22.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes hi smoke ok minor updates to slate docs are ok hi water darn it, this scheme tutorial won't load right onto my pda i want to make sure i grok cps 02:20am -:- water [water@tnt-9-153.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Signed off) -:- NetSplit: hogan.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [03:55am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [hogan.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: hogan.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf22.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from sterling.openprojects.net [04:09am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com sterling.openprojects.net -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (zwoei) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-129-230.s484.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us222.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial792.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Foo! hi kauf howdy I'm learning PPC assembly -:- NetSplit: wang.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [06:56am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [wang.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: wang.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes 07:00am -:- smoke` [tw026024@zaalf02.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes hi smoke s/$/\`$/ heh cute hcf: no need to add the ` :) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd/ as leaves fall on still waters/ she is here no more.) 07:10am -:- SignOff smoke`: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us222.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us222.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-212.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-212.tscnet.net]) -:- NetSplit: merril.openprojects.net split from hogan.openprojects.net [09:13am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [merril.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: merril.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us222.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System @ http://www.tunes.org || slate @ http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh7-port59.snet.net] has joined #tunes hoy rares 09:30am -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp098.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes hey 09:50am <_ruiner_> hi 10:00am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us222.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh7-port59.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp103.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn20.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-144.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water does anyone here know why it's not useful to use DMA transfers to copy from main memory to video memory ? 11:30am atg: hi hm gnu smalltalk now also has a jit compiler project the 386 move string operations are better than DMA rumor has it that on some processors a tight loop move is even faster than the hardware move! =P hm 11:40am alonzo: but if i were to use DMA i could use the cpu moves for other things DMA SUCKS!!! You aren't saving any time... hm maude's a pretty darn small download Any time you save using DMA is wasted as the CPU needs to wait for the RAM... DMA only works on the first 1 mb ram for the 8 bit controller or 16 mb for the 32 bit controller... The DMA controllers are there strictly for backward compatibility... and for soundcards then? with PCI video cards you can use the card's internal "Bus Mastering" system which is identical to DMA. BUS mastering is DMA done right... hm brb, rebooting :( atg: thanks for the information The DMA controller is now in the card so a card equiped with that controller behaves like a CPU... -:- Kaufmann [newbie@200.255.108.118] has joined #tunes Hey -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) I have never tried to find out exactly how bus mastering is implemented in software. hey kauf anyone have any thoughts on writing a small OS in PPC asm? Perhaps borrowing the OpenFirmware Forth interpreter? there was another brazilian here yesterday water, yeah? Who? hm. some name with brackets around it he seemed a neophyte, but couldn't speak english wel, so who knows -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes heh -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Read error to smoke[15dyn20.delft.casema.net]: EOF from client) I've found that most Brazilians are nowhere near as clueful as me :) 11:50am heh. they're in trouble then ;) heh -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes I suppose the answer to my first question is "no", then ah well. I'll just go and reinvent the wheel, then. yeah, open firmware is my only guess maybe linuxppc? -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (arghl) IIRC, LinuxPPC boots from the MacOS, using an extension to then extirpate the MacOS code from memory and replace it with the Linux kernel image. ugh yeah big-time I see no better way to do it, then. Short of requiring the startup disk to be exclusively allocated s/then/though/ I suppose that no matter what I do, I will end up having to take a lot of the code from the stuff the LinuxPPC guys reverse-engineered, anyway. cool. distributed actors modelling via re-write logic (sorry, as always i'm the language guy :) last I heard, actors were fully equivalent to closures with continuations right so what's the point? sigh "what's the point of any programming language if its all jus the lambda calculus?" :) LOL s/jus/just/ 12:00pm heck, Pict is based on the pi calculus, so that argument is invalid :) simplicity of expression and understandability i'm trying to pick the best set of abstractions okay and unify them properly er... not quite unify but why not just allow the programmer to use whatever abstractions he feels most comfortable with? i will but that won't be even possible until the self-hosted native compiler is ready providing him/her with a minimal set of orthogonal (amongst themselves) abstractions and saying "you can go from here" -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes kauf: yes, i know what a proglang is :) maybe, if you're a really nice guy, define a "core" language with only that minimal set, and build a "full" language from it are we on the same page here? of course i'm going to do that * bineng/#tunes waves to the crowd hi bin well, okay then hi Anders but i also want the end-user to have full efficiency, not layered abstraction what were we talking about again? slate, i thought also rewriting stuff and your ppc os work I suppose you can do something similar to what the PARC guys originally proposed for AOP: allowing interfaces to be abstracted upon, while maintaining an efficient, unified and optimised implementation Wow. What's going on with Slashdot moderation?!? I haven't seen a story with stupid comments moderated +5 in weeks now! actually re-writing covers a lot of aop but that's beside the point s/story/post/ water, yeah, I know 12:10pm An ideal system would recognise isomorphisms between high-level patterns in applications built from the full language and more efficient low-level constructs, and optimise on the fly, while retaining abstraction. heh what? it's that tricky "recognize isomorphisms" phrase :) yes that's one of the ideas behind the hll/lll relationship well, "recognise isomorphism" basically reduces to a bit of cleverness in designing the metasystem, plus a shitload of heuristics. Only a simple matter of programming :) sort of mapping ideas developed "from the top down" with low-level abstractions built from the "bottom up" yeah, whatever, or hard AI ;) that's just what I was about to say! :) wow. how did i guess that? :) well anyway so open firmware seems to be your best bet? although hard AI may be pushing it, it might be interesting to consider the possibility of having those non-deterministic problems of logic programming taken care of by a GA-based theorem rewriter. re. Open Firmware: yeah, I suppose. Now I should go look for docs. yeah, *that specific case* (i.e. non-det probs of logic prog) yeah, that specific case... but for that specific case, it's very useful. And approachable (from an implementation PoV). * Kaufmann/#tunes wonders if anyone has ever given a GA-based theorem rewriter the task of optimising its own source code. yes and you could say the same for lots of specific cases damn it, why am i continuing with this discussion? I suppose. But I still think that this case is general enough dunno because I have an interesting personality? :) nah. can't be that ;) 12:20pm brb so how would i reconcile re-write specification with self-style oo specification? doh back figured it out? heh yeah i wrote the answer on a napkin in a minute :) me, I would implement one in terms of the other, and then start merging features. yes, it'd be pretty easy to get rewrite rules from lambdas from slate objects hm i guess the issue is just bootstrapping i.e. providing the primitives, and gradually weaning from total dependence on them the first 10% of the problem takes 90% of the work, right? usually put on your thinking cap, then :) I'm reading up on Open Firmware (even though I should be studying linear algebra) so far I had been following the subject pretty well, but then we got into determinants, and the whole mess about commutative rings and K-modules and tensor products lost me. those are coool especially the tensors maybe, but I've yet to figure out what the hell they have to do with combinatory analysis. mmm... inner and outer algebras :) -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) 12:30pm hm combinatorics? well they're definitely part of linalg Apparently so. Factorials and permutations and Newton's binomials and all that. now *this* is why i like maude... "binary.maude" describes the encoding of natural numbers in binary heh extending that type of program provides interesting ideas or at least some good mathematical abstractions y'know, it's too much for my little brain. I'm reading about Maude, PPC assembly, Open Firmware and linear algebra at the same time. This can't work. heh -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd/ as leaves fall on still waters/ she is here no more.) 12:40pm -:- smoke_ [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hi hey 12:50pm -:- smoke_ is now known as avoozl hm fp within maude isn't simple to grok but the syntax isn't difficult 01:10pm -:- SignOff avoozl: #TUNES (whee) hm many questions with few definite answers nothing critical to implementability, though 01:50pm -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port221.snet.net] has joined #tunes how goes it rares? I'm on the dvd-discuss@openlaw.org mailing list it goes I'm psyched cool how is that case going anyway? kinda icky but now it's Valenti vs the world sorry, who's valenti? Jack Valenti poster boy for Motion Picture Association of america oh isn't that good, then? isn't what good? that it's him vs the world :) 02:10pm yes it is or for the sake of not getting complacent will be hm open source distributed legal research yes i looked at it how are you contributing? not even distributed.net could have seen this coming discussing brainstorming I habe a craftsmanship for brainstorming ok i thought it would be difficult to actually have legal expertise that a lawfirm would value that's just it who cares the lawyers need as many ideas as they can get who cares? oh enough with the self-doubt since this trial has no real precedent? yup gotcha but even then look art it from an open source perspective : anyone can contribute ppl will be happy to rip your contribution to shreds cordially and teach you the ropes i suppose every metaphor in the book has been brought up already heh yes i can see how *eventually* that would result in a working group of brain-stormers who moderates? openlaw.org and their crew fighting on the case hm the point is I don't want to get sodomized by the MPAA in the future so I'm gettimng in now hm i don't see dvd's as that powerful a medium, but oh well I may go blank at code or large structural designs but lewgal arguments heh It's like a giant slice of Chocolate Confusion cake fsck dvd's it's the MPAA sure, but if the mpaa relies on dvd's.... they did this with Betamax then it's a dinosaur anyway oh they did? no it ain't the medium it's the policy i guess i'm not up on my copyright confrontation history :) ok thx for explaining, btw and they're trying to pretend DVD is special cuz it's hyped up ad nauseum my head happens to be stuck in theoretical computer science crud np and hey it might malke me more likely to concentrate on code while I'm here 02:20pm I'll play politics on the dvd list :) so does the betamax issue help as a precedent? I'd say it does Betamax won heh. but i've never used betamax ;) but the most important thing right now is to destroy this idea that DVD is rocket science or even the idea that rocket science is rocket science * water/#tunes installs a better scheme distro it's the hype and glitter and futuristicity that's making this case difficult hm I mean c'mon who would sue someone for copying tapes in a home built stereo? most likely a tactic used for generations by large corporate entities in tech cases point oldest trick in the book oh god this scheme distro terminal-based beauty of it is I have my own business ideas that are going tro which one? no wait here's the main environment yeah it's got some good tools rares: hm? going to make the public so cozy w/ technology Apple will go out of business oh which scheme enviro? based on which ideas? (sorry i forget which project is yours) DrScheme damn, it's end-user based hire students anbd gifted kids to seel;l computers and mainrtain them heh. child labor? :) and stick the store front in every mall I get to get on every parents good site while in fact I can't stand parents period hm day care w/ real world experience actually, drscheme seems to have an excellent tutorial-like environment with "levels" cool rares: um what age group I forget which scheme goes into SuSE 02:30pm good question I'd like to say 15+ ok that's reasonable omg.... turtle graphics here's the crazy part everybody tells me to concentrate on one thing TURTLE! lol just the tutorial, but still well fsck everybody I want a master plan Turtle was nice in its day now I need to get on a diet that can give me the energy to pull this off hm good abstract interface to the gui widgets lol a *diet*? 240 lbs 6'3" wow I need to eat right that's not too far overwieght for the height cut down on porn breaks the most exercise I do is drive Barnes and Noble um ok heh. work is enough exercise for me * water/#tunes says goodbye to DrScheme -:- mibin [mibin@an1-516.tiscalinet.it] has joined #tunes ? sounded like you were delighted with it nah. the power tools weren't there i'm not the usual programmer, as most tunesers will tell :) power, every body wants power, everybody wants to rule the world heh i just want to get my damn arrow idea out that's all i ask everything else is a distraction 02:40pm (hi mibin) )hi water( heh weird... rewriting logic has a version of oop and fp one thing that needs to happen is a system that obsoletes god damned conditionals ah here we get to the meat of the argument! >:) the conditionals should side effects of the model what's the criteria for conditionals' obsolescence? define A define B define rule of gravity define terrain let all paths(conditionals) from A to B sort them selves out i mean, you have data-flow and control-flow aspects of programming... each interacts with the other... conditionals consist of transforming data into control wtf are you talking about? heh, okay here goes: that's just constraint programming answer in oo: ThingLab even lisp handles constraints well -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES ( ) Many large scale programs are wriiten in hundreds of rules and it's impractical to jeep tracvk of every single situation duh that's why lisp pretty much wipes the floor with most oo langs well if thinglab were properly ported, smalltalk would easily counter lisp as for constraints so then what do you want arrow to accomplish lol -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp101.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes i didn't think this had anything to do with arrow arrow relates more to general-purpose (beyond programmatic) information-propagation, which encompasses data-flow and control-flow in a unified way everything reduces to input output and transission medium start from there then have fun no it doesn't everything *you* deal with reduces to that i c lol :) you just aren't interested in things that don't fit into the model you want to read a paper i grabbed on this? sure coders are such fscking closed-minded boobs I might as well build a collection of papers 02:50pm abi icct icct is Interaction, Computability, and Church's Thesis at http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/pw/papers/bcj1.pdf i'm not sure if agt applies abi agt somebody said agt was Around Goedel's Theorem at http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/ fuck acroreader opened up i don't care any more eihrul: got anything for me right now? nothing, besides a head-ache darn ok well i'll bbl take care of yourself, eih -:- water [water@tnt-9-144.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] 03:00pm -:- smoke_ [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes well shit water's got me on a wild goose chase -:- smoke_ is now known as smoke -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) 03:10pm -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- present [xdef@209-6-184-165.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- Ramona [Ramona@wcrtc-137-118-30-74.du.wcrtc.net] has joined #tunes -:- Ramona [Ramona@wcrtc-137-118-30-74.du.wcrtc.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Read error to smoke[15dyn20.delft.casema.net]: EOF from client) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250061.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250047.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port221.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- NetSplit: wang.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [05:16pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [wang.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: wang.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) -:- mibin [mibin@an1-516.tiscalinet.it] has left #tunes [] -:- ult [noone@user-37kbamo.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes hrmm 06:20pm heh 06:40pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us808.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust208.tnt31.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes Hey 07:30pm -:- SignOff present: #TUNES (Read error to present[209-6-184-165.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com]: EOF from client) -:- water [water@tnt-9-8.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at water hello Water have you passed english 102 or equivalent? yes you deserve to die for that response! why? I flunked out of english 101 4 times before finally passing... i should die because i worked my tail off academically? I am almost at the point of flunking out of 102 the second time.