IRC log started Sun Jan 23 00:00:01 2000 HO! [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0123 oh how goes Hacker Aid? I've written a paragraph of Motivation it's the kind of thing that needs to be done, not talked about hmm, i should probably go read some more heh about what? compilers oh Dragon Book? advanced compiler design and implementation yep just asking if you have it yeah, have that as well okay can you lend it to me? :) for the cost of postage to brazil, i could buy you the dragon book for less... 12:10am I guess :P it uses entirely too many greek letters though take comfort in that... what do you mean? nothing, just a private rant against the greek alphabet -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us838.javanet.com]) 12:20am -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Kaufmann` is now known as Kaufmann_away ah yes... it never hurts to mention that my Karma is now 38. 12:40am my karma is 52 *applause* what is your nick? what does it matter? I'd like to see your user page we are both talking about Slashdot, right? ya so what's your nick? _QZ "_QZ has posted 0 comments (this only counts the last few weeks)" 12:50am oh yes i want an iSmell device :) LOL 01:00am -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn84.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff wlfshmn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.503 -- Accept no limitations) ahh brix is stable once again -:- SignOff Kaufmann_away: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd / as leaves fall on still waters / she is here no more.) 01:30am * Fufie/#tunes wakes up.. new morning * air/#tunes gets ready for bed * smoke/#tunes is still frustrated by not being able to find a decent language decent language for what? mostly for learning thoroughly and particularly for writing a gui in the gui being blazingly fast and thereby actually usable on my system my next step is to write such a language, suck that is the name of the project i hope? and your system is what? i wonder if writing a language out of frustration is a good start fufie: a small 100mhz pentium fufie: but i'd like things to work fine on 486's too oh fufie: i have this philosophy which states that software can be more free when it runs on more free hardware, as opposed to the current GNU trend of using expensive hardware you might find upgrading easier then no even X is a tough call on a 486 if it will run fast on a 486 then it will scream on a more expensive machine, which is what u want air: that's the general idea :) air: not necessarily windows drags ass on a 486 and does pretty much the same thing on faster comps but mostly it's that i suspect hardware to decrease in power instead of increase are you falsifying moore's law? yes please it's like with the amiga 500 back then poor young people could buy one and have fun with them now you have to be a rich ass to have fun with a pc s/ass/spoiled brat hey generalizing a little too much well im off, cya -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) bye generalising too much 03:10am but I have earnt money programming the last ten years so I might be biased heh perhaps i should try harder to mix common lisp and c check out cl-glade http://www.cs.uit.no/~frodef/sw/cl-glade/ ah thanks that's gtk for CL maybe a bit memory intensive, but Frode would probably want feedback on it i was considering doing the gui itself in lisp too hm cl-glade uses acl ? the whole world seems to force common lisp people to use acl ): :) I am sure frode would love it if you got cl-glade working with cmucl or clisp I know he has tried with cmucl but gave up I think i haven't been able to call C from cmucl and haven't tried with clisp yet it should be possible from cmucl ouch. i'm stupid. i /have/ been able but forgot how it worked and now i know again 03:20am :) 03:50am -:- Kaufmann` [newbie@dial876.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Shalom! 04:00am hi What' s up? not much rewriting some code urgh "prepare to throw the first one away" and all that 04:10am yes :) always.. well, you know what they say: "debugging" means that you should have paid more attention to your program the first time :) thats a remarkable way to put it :) j/k my eventual goal is to do no post-compile debugging. 04:20am every mistake is caught by either me or the environment _as I type the code_. and of course, the system can read my mind, so it can correct me even before I make a mistake the last part being the central one, I suspect :) sometimes it can correct me before I'm even conscious of that part of the program logic anyhoo 04:30am -:- SignOff Kaufmann`: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd / as leaves fall on still waters / she is here no more.) -:- bineng [bineng@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by bineng_))) -:- bineng [bineng@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann` [newbie@dial876.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes FOO! bar okie abi, dopl? i heard dopl was Dictionary of Programming Languages at http://cgibin.erols.com/ziring/cgi-bin/cep/cep.pl hi 07:40am any of you whizzes familiar with pathnames in CL? well, they'll be adding another one to the list... my newest upcoming mini-project is a minimalist interpreted functional language; the catch is that its syntax is in Portuguese Fufie, not really I'm calling it PORTUGOL I'll probably never be a whiz in portugol then :) heh Eventually, I'd like to see a language with universally-translated symbols translatable, even LOL I used to think so when I was younger but realised it was not a good idea take a look at this post http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/01/23/096215&cid=35 Fufie, why? because it will make porting of programs a real mess well and it will encourage people to comment in their own language and use variable names in their own language the idea is exactly for all symbols to be universally translatable this is _not_ a Godd Thing Good 07:50am including comments and variable names (i.e., not just language built-ins) of course, this would take very advanced NLP. it would almost be an ai-complete problem (as of the /. post, his opinion is not too ridiculous I think.. most people I know feel the same way.. only a few ones believe in free programs) yeah, but a partial solution that solved 90% of the problem would probably be only 10% as complex ;) I think s/60/90/ would be closer to the truth s/90/60/ I mean but I think all programmers should learn and program in one language Fufie, I know... but the pragmatic arguments he gives are all completely refuted. He's really just standing on emotional grounds. just like monks throughout the ages wrote thins in latin, which allows us today to read it I believe in freedom of programming :) emotional ground is a completely valid place to stand.. my belief in freedom of programming is also emotional.. it's not based on technicalities by "freedom of programming" I meant freedom for a programmer to choose the language in which he wants to program :) I don't really care who beats who on benchmark tests, as long as the free alternative serves my needs brb 08:00am back yes, I agree I'm just upset at this guy because he's replying to a post I wrote :) seriously np Ah good, an AC has already replied to the poster's question about "helping" large corporations by letting them use your Free software But his qualms about making a profit with free software are not only all answered in one ESR article or the other; they are also self-invalidating... Try to tell Rob or Jeff that you can't make a profit from Free Software :) now if I was rich and could afford a nice wineyard in portugal or somewhere nice, I'd make it into a monastery for the order of St iGNUcius, mostly based on fransiscan philosophy LOL with decent fiber access, nifty machines and all worldly needs accomodated for -:- water [water@tnt-10-152.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes Also, he likens software to a machine, instead of "a mathematical truth"... completely ignoring the fact that computer programming is in fact a branch of applied mathematics. hello but it is also a machine.. usually a deterministic one hi water -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.135.88.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes sounds like a good topic Hey Fufie, sure. But his reasoning is that all machines cost money, and software is kind of like a machine, so software must cost money. that is wrong because software isn't physical that's the just the first thing that crossed my mind. Essentially, you can debunk this guy's argument in a thousand different ways. 08:10am yes, and most of the common arguments for free software can be destroyed by using arguments about worldly needs :) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn84.delft.casema.net]) heh it boils down to the choice of whether one is an idealist or a person who is happy with society well, you all know where I stand :) yes, I am not worries about that :-) worried * water/#tunes is browsing the original tunes mlist posts anyone have a pointer to a functional sorting algorithm? or suggestions of usage examples of a declarative language? maude probably does it i can definitely see rewrite handling sorts uh? maude? rumour has it maude is a reflective rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/ or http://www.csl.sri.com/~duran/ thanks abi 08:20am and most functional languages (i suspect) have sorting algorithms in their libraries wow. someone posted some glossary terms that never made it to the website -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-238-8.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn84.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes brb hmm.. it's not fun to optimise and then realise that the memory use doubles :) heh Its a trade off, size or speed... ;) lar1: I want both(tm)! or development time the speed didn't improve either Ghyll: Have fun ;) back lar1: :) 08:30am * Fufie/#tunes sighs heh. self and beta were the original hll candidates I remember Jecel mentioned that Faré and him considered merging Merlin and TUNES yes they did optimisation isn't easy I may get hired by Jecel next year to go work for him at Merlintec moving to São Carlos doesn't seem bad at all honestly, though, self doesn't have the right stuff for tunes really? cool *ka-shing* My Karma just hit 40!!! * Kaufmann`/#tunes is a Karma whore and likes it :) heh Oh fuck slashdot as a game? Some asshole demoted me back to 39 "-1, Overrated" :P must be like watching stock prices :) kinda :) Heh BRB back 08:40am PORTUGOL will have rather nice semantics, overall *will have*? water, yeah kinda like slate, then? :) PORTUGOL is my declarative language with Portuguese-specific syntax lol "SEJA/SEJAM" forms instead of "LET/LET*" and so on * Fufie/#tunes has lost is /. feel the idea is to make it read as much as a math textbook as possible s/is/his/ you're not just going to write a pre-processor? I posted something last week and wasn't moderated up.. I hate that water, of course I am. First a lexical parser to translate PORTUGOL syntax into SEXP; then an interpreter that converts PORTUGOL forms into Scheme equivalents. Eventually I'll add formatting to the language specification sorta like literate programming, only better :) >>> Kaufmann` [newbie@dial876.infolink.com.br] requested PING 948645866 from #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-249-73.s581.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hey Al hmm.. my program uses more memory now and is defunct.. ouchie is it me or is ilisp VERY hard to use? 08:50am don't know.. I use ELI fufie: where can i find that? (don't tell me it's ACL specific :)) it is ACL specific (you will be assimilated) :) LOL -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp139.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes Hey eihrul lo -:- Kaufmann` is now known as Kaufmann_away 09:00am -:- SignOff Kaufmann_away: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd / as leaves fall on still waters / she is here no more.) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn84.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn84.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes hm the slate mlist is now open for biz * eihrul/#tunes bows. heh * Fufie/#tunes pings ghyll 09:20am * Fufie/#tunes starts hating his code * Fufie/#tunes retreats back to the code in cvs.. eh? failed optimisation attempt :( * eihrul/#tunes invokes the quote of Knuth. yeah yeah * Ghyll/#tunes pongs 09:30am * smoke/#tunes has built a very simple ggi wrapper for cmucl compiled cl code seems very usable cool -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250061.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes yeah all it does now is init a 320x200x8bpp screen and i can use (test-sprite x y w h color) compiled it runs at 70fps, uncompiled at about 5fps (limited to 70fps by polling vertical retrace of course) what's this, a lisp-os? hm no, ggi for cl pyro: hm, no i'm trying how good common lisp suits my needs for a very responsive multimediaish gui how is it for graphics.. good? how long is the compile time for cmucl? pyro: libggi is great imho water: i have installed binaries -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (bar) does libggi support freebsd? 09:50am pyro: yes (afaik) -:- NetSplit: asimov.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [09:55am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [asimov.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: asimov.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn211.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn84.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250061.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes aye carajo there's one problem with my current freebsd setup that's bugging me namely X11 ? :) it's the mail programs what about them? it wouldn't hurt to install a *BSD or Linux distribution that does the basic stuff "off the shelf" 10:00am oh, mutt is good but it uses sendmail, which is FUBAR and I don't have the will to straighten it out and what about emacs? Pine bypasses sendmail, but it likes to lose messages when it has trouble sending them rmail, gnus &c ? emacs.. hmm that's a thought -:- water [water@tnt-10-42.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes emacs?... *shudder* 10:10am -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving) what's your favorite version of emacs? -1? -1 (smoke) abi agrees none? ;) pyro: i use gnu emacs 20.4.1 pyro: 20.5 is ok pyro: i use it in X11 all the time (because of the syntax highlighting). imho Xemacs is too bloated. 20? Woah! Time for a new versioning system!! I was thinking of a versioning system like this: AB123 Could you elaborate? A=major version B=minor version, 123=patch level Ah I just don't see the need for using numbers :) actually, screw the 123 thing, use A-Z for the patchlevel too so in a couple weeks, I'll release Retro AAA 10:20am 10 minute later, Retro AAB :) When it goes past z the program is too old anyways ;) right Retro BAD Heheh Emacs is old, and it's only up to T hehehe Retro #BAD? dammit.. why is the net so slow? I'll never be able to download emacs aol not at 500bps Cause you don't need emacs Its a sign from the gods ;) hehe 20.5 is smaller than Netscrape :) "only" 11 megs Only? Wow... ;) 'course.. the netscape I have is only 2.5 megs numbers aren't that bad imho Numbers are good and A-Z can only give you 26 versions Just not years.... retro 2000? Yuck smoke: no... 26 * 26 * 26 versions 26^3 more than enough... Woah... undernet is like yuck I wouldn't want to make major changes less than a few years apart 26 major versions then in 52 years you're stuck to patching version Z I'll be dead If you need more then 26 major versions then you are stupid besides, retro will be dead long before that lar1: i know companies who need more than 98 versions I wouldn't expect it to get past C or D * eihrul/#tunes can see it now... The Letter Z Problem aka TLZ (for the media) 10:30am who needs versions, anyway? pyro: software smoke: What kinda product is at major version 98??? really crappy ones... even small eiffel is at 97, i believe :) RavenOS is at 0.1.0 and I am damn proud! ;) what's ravenos do? what does 0.1.0 do? SDS is at 0.5.10 and approaching 0.6.0 Fufie: how old is SDS? 96 I think the recent rewrite is about a year old pyro: Not alot right now, just goes to pmode and some simple sutff 1.4M gzipped download at the moment lar1: congrats :) 10:40am what's SDS? it has been said that SDS is a framework for developing programming tools such as source level documenters, source browsers, source metric collectors, and similar. or at http://sds.yi.org/ pyro: Thanks lar1: you're where I am (which is where I was last january) pyro: Heh, well I've been here for a while pyro: I just need to not be lazy and it be cooler hehe.. I got alot done in this below-zero weather I whish I had that weather I like dark, night, and cold -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-208.ici.net] has joined #tunes allright I've got too much multitasking going on here.. no such thing as too much multitasking I have a one-track mind * Downix/#tunes installs an 8-track player in pyro's mind 10:50am I have an 8track player I have 3 well, 2 now that one is hanging out of pyro's nostil Heh -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes Hey air hey 11:00am OMG, some fresh air in here hey air, any new developments for BRiX? Hes away eating agreed... I hate esmacks because I can't remember all those fucking key-combos... time to retire it... the older a piece of software the kludgyer it is... what unix did this several times... what I suggest is a comlete refactoring of the software and rewrite in Clisp.. Linux is based on system V Release 4.3 and then the kernel is version 2.2.x So if we were to invent a whole new unix we would call it "System VI release 1.0 kernel 1.0 =) om the ZZZ rollover bug... =P nah... 98 = 4.1.0.98 =\ 11:10am * Downix/#tunes never needs key-combos for emacs, I use XEmacs Downix: brix is stable again after my kernel mods and im continuing work on the language 11:20am cool al: an emacs in CL would rock Yes, Emacs re-done for CL would rock Ok, I nominate AlonzoTG to do the work. We expect the first alpha next week monday 12am Right Hourly updates you'd get to ZZZ in no time, at that rate right what about Greek? they only have 24 letters Nah, Chinese a few thousand characters is enough I think are they in any particular order? 11:30am I always wondered how you find anything in a chinese dictionary nope anyone know howto write multi-level makefiles? I looked at one once.. I think it was ordered by latin transliteration :) likekly