IRC log started Wed Dec 22 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1222 12:10am -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us826.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn185.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hi 02:10am -:- colorg [r@humbubba.smart.net] has joined #tunes Fare? well, Fare is sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) or pronounced Fahree oh really. Did I walk in in the middle of something, or are you a bot? :) abi? yes, smoke? I hope that didn't beep the channel :o) no one is as polite as abi is; it's a bot ah. Polite bots are nice. Lisp or Forth? abi 3 4 + . zero what? hahaha :) abi 3 dup .s hmmm, not Forth. tsktsk i suppose it's a perlbot abi seen fare fare was last seen on IRC 9 hours, 55 minutes and 31 seconds ago, saying: quickly abandoned u8 for other activities [Tue Dec 21 16:23:10 1999] yeah I have to make a note of this joint. Fare did eforth for Linux and I added 160 syscalls as named primitives to it. 02:20am abi does perlmath abi 3 ^ 4 7 abi 3 ** 4 81 :oP 02:30am * colorg/#tunes tries to build SOLO SOLO? a bootloader, uh... from the ShagOS project? abi: shagos is at http://www.csh.rit.edu/~shaggy/shagos.html shagos? rumour has it shagos is at http://www.csh.rit.edu/~shaggy/shagos.html abi: solo is shagos' bootlooder, see http://www.csh.rit.edu/~shaggy/shagos.html yeah, I'm building it. The build looks pretty lucid. 02:40am Last Update: Friday, March 14, 1997. hmmmmm that shagOs page doesn't seem all too up to date the software page says Sunday, July 18, 1999 hmm.. quake has been gpl'ed ah i wonder how iD feels about that; they're probably very proud. 02:50am they probably want a bigger pool of 3d-programmers to reqruit from :) s/q/c/ So, Hi, I'm Rick Hohensee. Are you non-bots TUNES members? (not that abi isn't a member...) 03:00am TUNES (the nick) is the channel logging scriptoid colorg: i'm no member for i know too little; i'm just trying to learn from the project Sounds like a good plan. I don't know what some of the design goals are. "reflection" and such. I'm wondering how to make my Forth-like thing bootable with mimimum hassle. I am a simple and humble tunes apprentice and have a lot to learn from the older and more experienced tunes high priests colorg: seen retro? hcf I almost went after that but got SOLO instead cause I'm CVS-challenged I don't need much. In Forth-ese I need EMIT, WAIT, BYE, maybe disk BLOCK access... http://retro.tunes.org/old/retro-19991119.tar.gz ah cool fresh too :o) 03:10am is it all LGPL? ALL RIGHT! DVORAK! and a Forth. yow. 03:20am dvorak? the retro build asks for your keyboard layout. ah :) * smoke/#tunes uses dvorak too So do my cLIeNUX distro boot floppies :o) yeah, retro is my kinda stuff. Why NASM though? The authors are more familiar with that syntax? colorg: nasm vs. gas, no contest Can gcc compile for NASM? it can but it doesn't.... as an assembler, yeah, NASM is sweet you'd just have to change some backend code 03:30am though for x86 its probably a lot of backend code... Is a NASM/gas converter a nasty nasty, like say a Perl compiler or something? * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. i've seen nasm -> gas but never gas -> nasm well, my interest is the former actually, it's only relatively recently that gas got 16 bit x86 isn't it? * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) 03:40am -:- SignOff colorg: #TUNES ( humbubba@smart.net) -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn185.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes * Fufie/#tunes looks for a spider that can create a sitemap (open source), anyone? -:- Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us1041.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us826.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf * smoke/#tunes wonders why webpages take so much time to create Fufie: freshmeat, seach: sitemap I did, but I was not too happy about the ones found I think I'll try to use cl-http's w4 spider morning, guys 05:20am (and is it just me or is mozilla 12 even slower and more bloated?) smoke, such is the nature of Mozilla it's also some 40% larger i really don't understand it i see no use in such a bloated animal many people are rather fond of bloatware... believe it or not, lots of people like M$ Office that's because they know of no alternative i think (not that there is any) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (xmas) 05:30am is there an alternative to the http based www? freenet? freenet seems rather nice, conceptually... I was looking at it just last night oh? what's it based on? lemme find a link you can try freenet.on.openprojects.net I think downloading the .ps 05:40am hm judging from a quick first read i disagree on a whole bunch of ideas and besides that, i was actually looking for a replacement of the html/java/javascript/.. protocols 05:50am ah well JavaScript is a protocol? man, this jar command is taking long -:- smoke is now known as Keef 06:00am -:- Keef is now known as smoke hum. well it's a thing i'd like to be seen replaced ah then you might want to hear about my iOP/iOM pseudo-project 06:10am is it possible for an unjar to take so long? good grief 06:20am jesus christ, this is HUGE no wonder it's taking hours to process -:- NetSplit: clarke.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [06:34am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [clarke.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes 06:40am don't you just luuuuuv splits? -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB 06:50am kaufmann; what is that iop/iom ? 07:00am -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann back iOP is an internet Object Protocol, and iOM is the accompanying internet Object Model iOP is a simple application-layer protocol supporting a simple but elegant core of object functionality iOM is a language-independent model of remote objects, intended to be implemented easily in language-specific APIs as a layer above the iOP handling software sold yet? :) 07:20am still around? no LOL -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) 07:30am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-134-10.s264.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hey Big Al 07:50am -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf18.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on Kaufmann * Kaufmann/#tunes ducks smokie == smoke? 08:00am -:- fire [no@209-68-229-171.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes hey fire howdy Mr. Brazil :D * Kaufmann/#tunes does the samba for fire's pleasure bah excellent what's up anyway? Trying to read up on my math ah that usually ends up in dismal failure for me im just going to have to wait to be tought calculus 08:10am well, mine is just shameful especially (sp?) now that I have to work with Fourier transforms have fun :D somehow I highly doubt that * Fare/#Tunes thought samba was australian... :) kaufmann; jup i'm smoke (at university instead of at home) remember you asked about iOP/iOM? yes -- did you answer already? what is it? :) iOP is an internet Object Protocol, and iOM is the accompanying internet Object Model iOP is a simple application-layer protocol supporting a simple but elegant core of object functionality iOM is a language-independent model of remote objects, intended to be implemented easily in language-specific APIs as a layer above the iOP handling software abi: iOP is a simple application-layer protocol supporting a simple but elegant core of object functionality [Kaufmann's project] ...but iop is a simple application-layer protocol supporting a simple but elegant core of object functionality or see also iOM... oh.. it was registered :) 08:20am LOL * Fufie/#tunes goes into "duh" mode -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB -:- NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [08:26am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn185.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf18.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff KaufmannBRB: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- KaufmannBRB [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes 08:30am here am I -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann :D 08:40am -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB * AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at KaufmannBRB * KaufmannBRB/#tunes instantly turns on his anti-woodchuck force field :) Fufie: do you know where i can find a string tokenizer library for common lisp? Fufie: (or is it common to write a (defun string-to-list-of-words) yourselves? smokie: it is good training to write, but it is part of a few libraries.. let me find an url where there is heaps of useful functions http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~ruml/papers-and-code.html ah joy, thanks :) a word of warning though: the functions are written to be compatible and somewhat efficient but if you discover that one of them is a bottleneck they can still go the little extra and get to c/c++ speed hm could you rephrase that last line please? -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Ping timeout for fire[209-68-229-171.dialup.cust.tfb.com]) if you dicover that the code you find in libraries are slow and are a bottleneck in your program, that is normal but it is usually easy to optimise them to approach c/c++ speed ah okay they are however really nice when trying out stuff and learning the language the functions you should have for tokenising is SPLIT-SEQ-ON and SPLIT-SEQ-USING 09:00am yeah, i found those in string.lisp, they seem very useful (at least to understand how to do it) i wrote a string-to-list-of-words function with recursion and a do-loop, but it was pretty hard work compared to what i would've done in C I guess that is more an issue of what you're used to.. I am also (too) used to imperative languages yup however as for the SPLIT-SEQ functions, notice that no types is declared, not even for the STR variable for CMUCL and ACL this will improve the speed.. inserting (declare (optimize (safety 0) (speed 3) (debug 0))) will also help somewhat in ACL why is everybody using acl? probably because ACL is pretty ok and that it is free for non-commercial use which is what I usually use it for I do however use CLISP as a parallell implementation to make sure my code is portable i think it's too bad that companies take away the attention of opensource projects by giving a way free `trial' versions note the quotes oh well :) I don't really agree with you there no? no it seems all development in the common lisp world is focused around commercial implementations I think it is good for the community that we have good implementations available ah yes, i have to agree on that point and the ACL version encourages open source as the work done with the trial edition is open source you can't deliver a binary executable with it, you must deliver the source for it that version doesn't allow to be relicensed 09:10am the code written can have any license it will, the lisp-system it runs in is owened by someone else but it allows you to distribute it as well as long as people respect that it is owned by someone else remember that code under GPL is still owned by the guy or girl who wrote it no i meant the code for acl I have sold my GPL'ed code to others under a different license (basically a BAD-license) there seems to be little interest in developing a good opensource implementation of common lisp there is interest but implementing common lisp is a HUGE task and a DIFFICULT task that is why people write a scheme-system instead which is a small task and is relatively straightforward and there are a million schemes out there but only a handful good ones, and there are a handful good common lisp systems hm the morale is basically that CLISP and CMUCL are amazing feats ;) how's the current state of affairs for clisp and cmucl? 09:20am cmucl is not maintained as much as one could hope for and in many ways it has outgrown it's design and it is hard to port to new hardware and get e.g good threading support for other platforms clisp is however steadily improving but lacks some of the more advanced features and some parts of the ANSI-standard.. it is about five times slower than ACL on a recent benchmark done on win32 on my code it is approx. three to four times slower hm and what do you think about Dylan? the last notable open source CL is PopLog which is at CLTL2 and not ANSI and lacks more advanced stuff.. it is however really fast for using a vm for everything but numerical stuff Dylan is not quite CL but it is much better imho than most other languages.. maybe the new company which bought it can drive it homw home hm and what about gwydion dylan? haven't tried it i tried that language when it had no dynamic library support yet it seemed quite nice, but the syntax scared me away.. (i didn't know anything about haskell and caml back then) the strength of the prefix syntax is that macros become incredibly powerful and writing new languages are child's play 09:30am dylan doesn't have prefix syntax? no it's infix, to sell dynamism to the people allergic to ( and ) ah do you know something about `logical' languages or other forms? I have dabbled some with Prolog and Godel but I am no expert godel? http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/goedel.html they didn't seem to practical to me, but i think that's mostly because the way i think of implementing problems is beyond logic -:- hcf [nef@209.94.146.58] has joined #tunes 09:40am -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann To me, logic programming will only be 'serious' when it's integrated into the functional paradigm For instance, Haskell's type system is practically a little logic programming language in itself Fufie: have you tried mercury? fare: no Kaufie: have you read kris de volder's phd thesis? By designing a better way to represent type relations in a computing system, the resulting language will be able to use constructs from both functional and logic programming in both type declarations and otherwhere mercury is to prolog what haskell is to lisp fare: a hack to introduce fascist typing? ;) Fare, it's a 200-page text and I have no printer. Need I say more? :) abi: mercury is also to Prolog what Haskell is to Lisp fare: wish i knew abi: mercury is also to Prolog \what Haskell is to Lisp okay, hcf. hcf, why? hcf: too late, I did it with foowhat followed by a =~ s/foo// the other day, whilst playing a game of Rick Dangerous, i was thinking how much fun it would be if someone could edit the music and background sprites, in a way so that i could benefit from the updates and keep on playing. This calls for a whole bunch of security protocols though, and i wondered if it wouldn't be better to implement these issues in hardware than in software. Any ideas? hardware sucks LOL Kaufmann: why what? Turing understood it soon enough: software is what makes a machine turing-equivalent Fare is a True Computer Scientist :) WTF is RIck Dangerous Kaufmann: Rick Dangerous is a virtual hero who infiltrates secret armies of The Enemy to kill all evil people who set up evil traps for him Kaufmann: it wouldn't be too hard to find a c64 emulator and download the rom from arnold's Kaufmann: what, when etc are question words, which abi tries to answer smokie, c64? abi: WTF? fare: i haven't a clue abi: wtf is swearing ...but wtf is ... LOL 09:50am kaufmann; RD is from the time that games were ported to a gazillion of platforms. it's there for c64, amiga, atari st and pc/dos. aaaaaah Commodore -:- fire [no@209-68-229-171.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Ping timeout for fire[209-68-229-171.dialup.cust.tfb.com]) 10:00am -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann Bye all -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Kaufmann has no reason) 10:20am -:- ZeroX [zerox14@BTVLB103-31.splitrock.net] has joined #tunes -:- ZeroX [zerox14@BTVLB103-31.splitrock.net] has left #tunes [] -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp69.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 3 days, 2 hours, 33 minutes and 18 seconds ago, saying: sort of :) [Sun Dec 19 08:56:51 1999] 11:40am -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- colorg [r@humbubba.smart.net] has joined #tunes hi hi -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) 12:20pm -:- lispbliss [lispbliss@cont01p31.ont.micron.net] has joined #tunes -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.24] has joined #tunes re re -:- SignOff colorg: #TUNES (Ping timeout for colorg[humbubba.smart.net]) 01:10pm -:- binEng [Anders@d212-151-106-251.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- mibin is now known as IBEGONE * IBEGONE/#tunes is away ->coding<-Page [FRIENDS] Log [ON] -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[209.94.146.58]: Connection reset by peer) -:- IBEGONE is now known as mibin -:- hcf [nef@209.94.146.58] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lispbliss: #TUNES () -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[d212-151-106-251.swipnet.se]) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-72.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial182.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes FOO! bar baz hey So what's up, gang? Testing out Clementine do you know anything about the Kuang exploit? Hey, I just realized that I spend about 5 to 7 hours of my average day in this channel no mibin Kaufmann: Same here mibin, wasn't that something out of an annoying Gibson book? clementine? i heard clementine was a modular OS being written by core (mailto:core@tunes.org) Who's core? somebody said core was developing a kernel-less, component-based OS, Clementine, and the XCOM file format (http://xcom.tunes.org) I deserve that * Downix/#tunes nods Clementine is nice mo' info? Downix: are you saying you've gotten more than the demo!? eihrul: No, the demo is enough to work with for now doh Hey, Heretic rocks hehe Playing with a few of Clementine features someone please describe Clementine Kaufmann: Ok, it's a re-implimentation of the theories behind the Amiga oh? ease of programming found in libraries w/o eliminating the ability to run directly off of the hardware all in a multitasking environment Well, that's the best way i can describe it i thought the idea was components? :) eihrul: It is, but I'm trying to describe it in common UNIX-thought I've transcended UNIX I'm One with the Source :) "It's a can opener! No, it's a fork! No, it's an ink pen!" You're all wrong, its just a stick of metal! -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.103.24]) * Downix/#tunes slaps Kaufmann with a "grade-AA" sticker lol s/its/it's/g Heh It's a desert topping! No, it's a floor cleaner! 8) A desert topping? 03:50pm Kaufmann: SNL joke * Kaufmann/#tunes pictures the Sahara covered in creamy chocolate hehehehe -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn185.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes I pity the beduins (sp?) Anyways you get what I mean Kaufmann? Chocolate is awful when you're thisty * Downix/#tunes is quite amazed at Clementine um... insert an "r" in the proper place on the above sentence what's a thist? Yeah, I guess. "Such is the thist of the game." Or something Anyhoo, where can I get this wonderbra^H^H^Hful OS? hehe Kaufmann: Talk to Core, it's not done yet tho Just ask him for it? Hardly seems practical Well, his company is making it, so once it's done it'll be made availible So it's a corporate product? Interesting well, supposedly its going GPL Let's see and hope and supposedly they're combing for patents right now... * Downix/#tunes nods At least now I know that the OS exists and works By the way, Downix, I'd like to have your opinion on something Kaufmann: Shoot * Downix/#tunes loves to give his opinion 8) The municipal government of Rio has a project for putting up some kind of "Internet booths" all over the city; it's slated for the mid-2K's. The idea itself is great, and I'd hate for it to go to waste on the hands of some greedy Windows-hugging PC-making OEM. Oh? kiosks for the masses 04:00pm Yeah * Downix/#tunes hrms So I want our (not yours, ours) little enterprise to be there as the lowest bidder when (if?) it goes to public contract. How soon would they be putting them into service * Downix/#tunes nods See what I mean? My company is not producing machines, we licence our design to other firms to make them 8) I see exactly So what do you suggest, in technical terms? I'll remember you when we get obscenely rich :) Kaufmann: Well, of course one thing I could suggest would be if timing were good our chipset. If not, I know a company in california that makes a low-cost multimedia system for kiosks, but they're not pushing them much or of course I could give you that companies blueprints with a few custom upgrades Interesting Make some use out of those old blueprints So I do have a few options If they require it in about a year, we could possibly have a limited run of the Eddas chipset ready in time if less, I can set you up with the people who own the few core patents and supply you with the blueprints Well, I'll have to get my schtick together -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) Ok You've got my email. Peace I do? yeah JIC give it again if not, kaufmann@impa.br is good too :) * Downix/#tunes lost his address book a few days ago ok -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Kaufmann's First Law: All subsequent laws are true. Kaufmann's Second Law: All preceding laws are false.) ok that would be interesting * hcf/#tunes watches the spambots dive in and grab the addr either option hcf: the logs are really advantageous for spam bots :) Yup perhaps you could x out anything that looks like an email addy in the logs? hmm its too late I usually /msg it to someone hcf: well, for future spam bots... or even more interesting perhaps replace email addresses.... with fake ones 04:10pm just to do a case study on how many spam bots pick it up :) Hmm I have a ton of email addresses 04:20pm So, what's up? -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.106.14] has joined #tunes 04:30pm -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.190] has joined #tunes -:- zarq_ [zarq@10dyn192.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn59.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq_ is now known as zarq -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[209.94.146.58]) hey hey what's up? just working on my file browser http://www.qzx.com/x/test/.edit/ great login as test:none did that password work? can't find out, X is dead * Downix/#tunes is re-compiling it ugh * Downix/#tunes hates how X goes nuts i need someone intelligent to test this out ok, getting out Lynx it looks so much nicer in netscape :) We'll see authorization failed try using test as the password accepted oh crap i know why it didnt change the password ok 05:50pm interesting