IRC log started Fri Nov 26 00:00:04 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1126
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
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<Fare> abi: rmch is recursive make considered harmful at http://www.canb.auug.org.au/~millerp/rmch/recu-make-cons-harm.html
<ree> heh
<ree> I've crashed a few systems with make =)
06:30am
<Fare> tell me about it
<Fufie> has anyone tried Miller's system (Aegis?) ?
06:40am
<Fare> nope
07:40am
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<Kaufmann> Shalom!
<yoo> w3rd.
09:10am
<Fare> Gakuk!
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<Kaufmann> kukag
<Kaufmann> So what's up?
<Kaufmann> Is Release 1 out yet?
09:20am
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<Kaufmann> back (again)
09:30am
<ree> fufie, I may soon
<Fufie> ree: a clean project or one which now uses make/automake/autoconf/etc
09:40am
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<smoke> hello
<smoke> hi
<smoke> oops, ww
<Fare> ww?
11:30am
<smoke> ww=wrong window
<smoke> fare; do you co-develop ocaml by any chance?
<smoke> fare; i was looking into adding readline support for it, until i noticed the command line interface was written in ocaml :)
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11:40am
<Fufie> some advice: I plan to learn (at least) one stically typed functional language, should I go for haskell, ocaml, sml? 
<Fufie> statically
<AlonzoTG> om?
<AlonzoTG> iz phare hare?
<eihrul> fare seems to advocate ocaml a lot
<Fufie> eihrul: and I have friends who say haskell and my professor says sml ;)
<eihrul> well, i like haskell myself
<eihrul> never played with other two
<smoke> fufie; i have about the same problem here :)
11:50am
<Fufie> hmm.. half the caml site is in french.. :-/
* AlonzoTG/#tunes kneedz help figuring sumpfin out...
<smoke> alonzo; a spelling checker? :)
<AlonzoTG> close...
<AlonzoTG> Wel u ce paradokses....
<AlonzoTG> I just noticed that they are quite common and ordinary in real lyfe...
<AlonzoTG> But they really foobar math....
<AlonzoTG> Is it possible to reconsile those in a language where tey work all the thyme?
<AlonzoTG> just as in lyfe?
12:00pm
<smoke> alonzotg: i think i do not follow you completely 
<Fufie> liff is not awfully like a hamster imho
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at Fufie
<AlonzoTG> Woodchuck damnit,, woodchuck!!!
<Fufie> liff tend to be irregular and bumpy.. thou might even get flaming woodchuks sent in your general direction :)
<Fare> Haskell is nice, too
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> Ever notice how things are many times both oposites at the same time?
<smoke> alonzotg; that's mostly when not the `thing' itself, but also its context is examined
<eihrul> Fare: doesn't ocmal have better compiler though?
<eihrul> er ocaml
<Fare> sure
<smoke> alonzotg; and for a lot of `things' there is not even an opposite (`apple', `pear', `banana' make good examples)
<Fare> and it doesn't have feature discrepancy among implementations ;->
<smoke> fare: lol 
<eihrul> 1 implementation :) (AFAIK)
12:10pm
<AlonzoTG> Eye Yam talking about abstrackt thingz.
<eihrul> smoke: anti-fruits
<eihrul> smoke: fruits composed of anti-matter...
<Fufie> eihrul: there are anti-fruits.. an anti-apple a day makes the doctor come to your door every day
<AlonzoTG> omzles?
<Fufie> even worse than jehovah's witnesses
<eihrul> Fufie: no, they keep the anti-doctor away
<Fare> and three anti-apples a day make the doctor come to your door every eight hours?
<Fare> reminds me of Lennart Augustsson's .signature...
<Fufie> never tried three.. tried two and then the doctor was really really keen and got the cops to break down my door.. three must be horrible
<Fare> [This non-signature is unintentionally not left unblank.]
12:20pm
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* eihrul/#tunes gives binEng an anti-apple.
<binEng> wow thanks eihrul!
12:40pm
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> ToPiQuE??????????????????????????????///
<AlonzoTG> after squirting a can of greasy shit into my keyboard the G key isn't stuck anymore =P
12:50pm
<smoke> eihrul; do anti-trees grow from anti-apples or is consistency the other way around?
<eihrul> well, from what i've read...
<smoke> :)
<eihrul> anti-particles behave almost exactly as particles :)
<eihrul> except when trees and anti-trees meat, things go boom :)
<eihrul> er meet...
<eihrul> but meat is appropriate in this instance
<smoke> :)
<binEng> eihrul: The question that bogged me was if I should really thank, or if you should.
<eihrul> <Fufie> eihrul: there are anti-fruits.. an anti-apple a day makes the doctor come to your door every day
<Fare> trees don't meet anti-trees; rather, they start walking time backwards
01:10pm
<eihrul> Fare: have you ever seen an anti-tree? how would you know? :P
<binEng> c'mon, time can't go backwards
<smoke> time can't but i wouldn't be too sure about trees
<binEng> I've never seen a tree actually _go_ anywhere..
<eihrul> hurricanes...
<smoke> bineng; anywhere but up :)
<binEng> smoke: right. Well, maybe I've just not seen enough of them to call myself an expert in the area ;)
<smoke> hum
01:20pm
<AlonzoTG> How beeg iz the average LISHP interpriter and warez can I get one?
<smoke> -rwxr-xr-t   1 root     root      2910532 Oct 14 19:21 /usr/bin/emacs
<AlonzoTG> heh
<AlonzoTG> I maean smaller than 3 megs...
<AlonzoTG> Esmacks has too much shit in it anyway...
<Fare>    5 -rwxr-xr-x    1 root     root         4608 Oct 29 13:31 /usr/bin/clisp
<smoke> alonzo; that last remark is debatable, and then there's this:
<smoke> -rwxr-xr-x   1 root     root         3840 Oct 14 19:22 /usr/bin/guile
<AlonzoTG> wuz guile?
<AlonzoTG> I need a lisp interpriter, not a big bloated app that uses lishp...
<smoke> alonzo; guile = gnu's ubiquitous interface language for extensions
01:30pm
<Fare> ok, the real clisp size is:
<Fare> 1011 -rwxr-xr-x    1 535      users     1030088 Oct 29 13:31 lisp.run
<smoke> alonzo; it's a scheme interpreter
<smoke> alonzo; and /usr/bin/guile uses libguile.so.6, which is about 500k
<AlonzoTG> That's a meglabyte. =\
<Fare> mebibyte
<AlonzoTG> Well warez can I get one off the net?
<Fare> smoke: but guile arguably has less functionality than clisp, and consumes more memory when running?
<Fare> Review/Languages.html#LISP
<AlonzoTG> okay. should haf thought of that phirst =P
<Fufie> clisp is somewhat slow (though it is fast compared to guile)
01:40pm
<Fare> clisp is not slow, on a 666MHz Alpha
<Fufie> 666MHz Alpha's are pretty common.. 
<Fare> ok let's just say that clisp, being portable, can somehow take advantage of hardware power that its compiled counterparts (CMUCL) cannot as easily
<Fufie> but it will suck pretty bad when you want to optimize for other types than T
<Fufie> ie numerical apps
<Fare> for num apps, there's Stalin
<Fufie> isn't Stalin a mere Scheme with typing?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes wants to see how much GAME he can stuff onto a disket
<Fare> abi: Stalin?
<abi> Stalin is a _very aggressive_ optimizing scheme compiler at http://www.neci.nj.nec.com/homepages/qobi/software.html
<Fufie> have stalin installed but seldom use it.. can't remember that it scored too well in the last comparison of numerical performance
<Fare> it does aggressive type inference, but supports (almost) full scheme language
<Fare> Fufie: what "last comparison"?
<Fufie> but I kindof like clisp, and want it to be faster, but some apps is just out of it's reach
<Fufie> fare: on a crosspost-fray a few months back.. comp.lang.lisp was in the newsgroup-list
<Fare> didn't pay attention
01:50pm
<Fufie> but as for other free almost-ansi common lisps.. poplog is supposedly faster
<Fufie> have done some porting to it, but I needed a few ansi-functions and posponed the whole thing
<Fufie> postponed
<Fufie> Poplog should be mentioned on the Review/Lang/CL page
<Fare> sure
<Fare> Fufie: care to add it?
<Fare> Fufie: do you have write access to cvs?
<Fufie> I don't have axx to the site I think
<Fare> Fufie: have an account on bespin?
<Fare> (else, you can send me a patch)
<Fufie> nope
<Fare> the whole common lisp section needs be redone
<Fare> the whole page needs be redone
<Fare> Fufie: want to contribute more directly?
<Fufie> sure
<Fufie> some of the pro/cons for CL seem very subjective and should at least have examples.. I find some of the remakrs a bit thin
<Fufie> ie "The too many builtin features are not orthogonal enough" which really needs examples or should be removed imho
<Fare> fufie: I have a "bug report" about the CL entry, too
<Fare> I can send it to you if you're willing to fix it
02:00pm
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-:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ
<Fufie> hi tril :)
<Fare> Tril!
<Fare> Tril: just created an account for Fufie.
<Tril> surprise me like that creating strange accounts :)
<Tril> We had a denial of service last Sunday at the same time some new account was logged in. 
<Tril> I dont know if it was his fault but he's also not being veryu talkative about anything
<Fare> fufie: just sent you mail @tunes.org
<Fufie> good :)
<Tril> the attack saturated NAS's T1 so we dont like that happening
<Fare> Tril: :(
<Fufie> currently fixing the passwords.. ssh is up :)
<Fare> Tril: who was that?
<Tril> Fare: nas couldnt figure out where the packets were coming from, all they know is they were going to bespin :(
<Fare> :(
<Fufie> fare: got the mail.. lots of html
<Fare> ff: I didn't save the message, so had to fetch it by deja.com
<binEng> nas?
<Fufie> have seen the topic before :))
<Fare> Rainer's harsh (and sadly accurate) criticism of the Tunes review on CL
<Tril> Fare: have you heard of Lar1's work on db-izing review?
<Fare> Tril: has it progressed?
<Tril> I don't know, last time I talked to him he was just starting
<Fufie> fare: have you got the url instead?
<Fare> when it's done, I'll gladly remove the old one
<Fufie> or msgid?
02:20pm
-:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [02:20pm]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net]
<Tril> hmm someone at 62.10.153.229 is mirroring bespin?
<Tril> anyone here?
<Fare> Fufie: hum, unhappily not. Search for Rainer Joswig replying to William Tanksley
<binEng> What's NAS?
<Fufie> ok.. I'll get it
<AlonzoTG> How do you interface LISP with low level shit like OGL?
<Fare> Tril: btw, there's an account tunes@open.suntech.fr; do you have the password/foo?
<Fare> that could be www.fr.tunes.org
<Tril> foo?
<Fare> ATG: FFI
<Fare> ATG: although there is no standard FFI that I know of
<Tril> no I dont know anytthing about that account
<Fare> (you could try CORBA, but it'd suck heavily)
<AlonzoTG> ffi = ?
<Fare> see around www.cons.org for CL FFI's, I presume
<Fare> Review/Languages.html#CL
<Fufie> foreign function interface
<Fare> Tril: core opened it so we make a mirror out of it
<Fufie> alonzo: I know a guy who is writing a game where he uses opengl and acl
<Fare> abi: FFI are Foreign Function Interface between two programming languages
<AlonzoTG> acl =?+
<Fare> abi: ACL is Allegro Common LISP, free of charge proprietary software at www.franz.com
* AlonzoTG/#tunes needs to know some good FFIz... wants to write a game in lisp that will fit on floppy. =P
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-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<Fufie> ACL is probably not the right lisp then.. unless your floppy is really large.. oh.. he left
<Fare> Alonzo: to fit a CL on a floppy, you'll have a harsh time, unless it's one of these 100MB superfloppies
<Fare> darn, doubly late answer!
<Fufie> one can however hack together a pretty large subset of CL with small footprint
<Fare> Tril: what's to do to mirror?
02:30pm
<Tril> apology if bespin is a big slow cpu-wise someone is  spidering us right now
<Fare> Tril: is it best to rsync the html pages, or what?
<Fare> spidering?
<Fare> oh, like altavista or such?
<Tril> Fare Yeah except I dont know who it is.
<Fufie> umm.. can one of you with root-axx change my shell to /usr/bin/tcsh ?
<Tril> Fufie can you change it yourself?
<Fare> done
<Fare> man chsh
<Fufie> I'm no sysadmin, but isn't that usually done in /etc/passwd ?
<Fare> yes, but on well-installed systems, chsh will do
<binEng> FYI: None of the Self links in the Tunes review works.
<Fare> bE: know the correct ones?
<binEng> Fare: I was there recently, maybe I could dig it up if you wanted.
<Fare> sure if you please
<Tril> Fare: should be self.sunlabs.com
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<Tril> I wasn't aware we didnt have that address in there.
<Tril> There's a new release of Self out this month??
<binEng> Tril's right.
<Tril> well I'm sure others here knew about this maybe it was already talked about on the list
<Fare> self.org and self.com...
<Fufie> has tunes got a logo/mascot? (need a nice picture for my buttonbar to open a window on tunes)
<Fufie> :))
<Fare> Fufie: don't you know our Tunes Logo?
<Fare> fufie: use a music note
<Fufie> good idea
02:40pm
<Fare> which? :)
<Fufie> umm.. last :)
<Fufie> the logo on tunes.org is a bit too recursive for GNOME's launcher ;)
<Fufie> found a nice picture for the button :)
<Fare> send it to me!
<Fare> it won't be the tunes logo, at least not for a while anyway
<Tril> i thought we were not having a logo
<Fare> but still
<Tril> whats /?N=D,  /?M=A ,  /?S=A, /?D=A   suffix onto http paths?
<Tril> is that some IIS thing?
<Fare> stuff produced by some webserver's dirctory index in absence of index.html
<Tril> the spider inside tiscali.it was accessing them under /~fare/files/
<Tril> Doesnt that just sort the listing? hehe
<Fufie> fare: it is at: http://www.tunes.org/~stig/  the background is transparent but netscrape doesn't understand that
<Fufie> the button sings a tune :)
<Tril> what is that have to do with tunes?
<Fare> well, nice pin-up at self.com, anyway
<Tril> looks like he is just smiling, not singing
<Fufie> there is musical notes
<Fufie> whatever
<Tril> well I can't see them
<Fufie> something wrong with your png-viewer then.. netscrape make the transparent colour black.. and the notes are black.. 
<Tril> Oh no.... they're trying all combinations of sorting the empty dir listings
02:50pm
<Tril> including duplicate
<binEng> Tril: How do you see that stuff anyway?
<Tril> tail -f /var/log/apache/access.log
<Tril> Oh no... Now they're using my aliases!!!  this sucks. what a waste of bandwidth.
<Tril> Fare do there exist links to /~fare/TUNES/ on your page?
<Fare> not anymore that I know of. Lemme check
<Tril> or /~fare/TUNES/Review
<Fare> there were, loooong ago
<Fare> maybe remove that in the robots.txt?
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<Fare> Tril: so, is rsync of html/ all there should be to making a TUNES mirror?
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<Fare> Tril: at what time should I schedule that?
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<Tril> ack /doc is not a 301 ?
<Fare> goes to /
<Tril> it's symlinked.. that wont make people notice it's wrong
<Fare> once again, an old compatibility feature
03:00pm
<Fare> and bespin.cx/doc is world-accessible, too!
<Tril> should be only at localhost. 
<Fare> sucks
<Tril> did someone open that up again?
<Fare> Tril: seems that in access.conf, last match wins
* Fare/#Tunes had problems getting things right on Samaris.tunes.org
<Fare> (my home machine)
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<Fare> oops, apparently, it's wrong again at my home, too!
<Tril> Fare: It was't problem with apache conf... there was a symlink in /serv/w3/doc -> /usr/doc
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<Tril> uh-oh
<Tril> what is going on now.
<Tril> now I am getting trying to load http://bespin.com
<Tril> now httpd isnt running
<Fare> apachectl configtest should help
<Tril> WTF did I just do??? 
<Tril> I ran /usr/sbin/apache directly.
<Tril> This is not the same as was running before??
<Fare> bespin looks like it works, to me
<Fare> many eggdrop running -- is that normal
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world)
<smkl> it's an el33t sh3llz?
<Tril> many = 4?
<Tril> the ones running now are normal..
<Tril> I'm not giving new account for eggdrops however
<binEng> Tril: any special reason for that?
03:10pm
<Tril> any reason why I should give accounts for eggdrops?
<binEng> not really
<Fufie> I don't know if abi is an eggdrop, but that shpuld be enough
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<Tril> Fare: I can't figure it out how to get /doc to work for localhost and not for others
<Tril> I say we should break the debian policy, it's retarded
<Tril> oh it probably messes up cvsweb doesnt it. 
<Tril> no
<Tril> Fare:  schedule rsync for what?
<Fare> for mirroring bespin on open.suntech.fr...
<Tril> why doesn't the FR server mirror from the UK server?
03:20pm
<Fare> hum. Good idea.
<Fare> the FR server seems down...
<Fare> break the policy?
<Fare> you mean, regarding /doc ?
<Tril> yup
<Tril> I hope none of the gif in cvsweb are of the same filename as any .gif in / if exists
03:30pm
<Fare> .gif? Burn all .GIFs!
<Tril> Fare: OK, you can.
<Tril> Maybe contact cvsweb author first to reduce duplicate work
<Tril> anyone know how dpkg-divert works?
<Tril> OK everything is working now:  1. Cvsweb works at tunes.org but not at bespin.dhs.org (OK)  2. /doc at tunes.org is Permanent Redirect 301 to / and  on bespin is a 404.
<Tril> 3. I copied files into ~tunes/html/cvsweb to make this work
<Tril> I'm leaving now
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
<Fufie> fare: I have a cvs-tree for a gpl-project.. might that get a new home on bespin?
<Fufie> I must ask my co-developer but he will probably find it ok as he likes TUNES
<Fufie> current home of the project is: http://www.ii.uib.no/~stig/Projects/SDS/
03:40pm
<Fare> no, it's not down, it's just refusing connections (even ssh) from my IP address
<Fare> Fufie: sure. What GPL project is that?
<Fare> the right person to ask is Tril, tho
* Fare/#Tunes is mind lagged
<Fare> Tril: oh, the latest cvsweb in debian potato is much improved
<Fare> fufie: how many languages does SDS use?
<Fufie> I'll ask Tril.. it's no rush though
<Fare> I see C++, CL, and Scheme
<Fufie> c, c++, CL and some python
<Fufie> the Scheme code is not used anymore
<Fare> oh
<Fufie> SDS will during december have front-ends for C, C++, Java and CL.. 
03:50pm
<Fare> have you committed languages.html?
<Fufie> I'm not done with Languages.phtml 
<Fufie> too tired now.. will fix it tomorrow
<Fufie> most of the work on SDS is currently being done with pen and paper as the xml-formats are expanded to account for problems encountered with various languages 
<Fare> thanks
<Fufie> tired.. good night :)
<Fufie> afk
<Fare> good night!
04:00pm
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-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (zzz <k!14>)
<eihrul> 1/list
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06:50pm
<air> eh?
07:10pm
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<Tril> hi all
<Tril> abi: seen water
<abi> water was last seen on IRC 25 days, 9 hours, 44 minutes and 10 seconds ago, saying: good point [Mon Nov  1 11:19:50 1999]
<Tril> well abi, I'm going to reboot bespin.
<Tril> When the power went off 9 days ago bespin booted into the wrong version of linux, the one with a memory leak.
-:- Signon time  :    Fri Nov 19 19:18:16 1999
-:- Signoff time :    Fri Nov 26 21:05:37 1999
-:- Total uptime :    7d  1h 47m 21s
-:- SignOff: TUNES (rebooting)
IRC log ended Fri Nov 26 21:05:37 1999
IRC log started Fri Nov 26 21:12:28 1999
[msg(tunes)] permlog 1999.1126
<Tril> air: that url didn't make it into the log, if you care, say it again
<air> Go! - Geniune Componentisation of the Operating System www.soi.city.ac.uk/~gel/go.html
<air> must have been written by one of the illiterate students there
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<Kurtis> what is reflective computing environment?
<yoo> oh dear
<Kurtis> what?
<yoo> abi, reflection?
<abi> hmmm... reflection is a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on your brain
<Kurtis> so it's a system that can change it's kernal or something else while it's running?
<yoo> sort of
<Kurtis> is it a different OS?
<yoo> It
<yoo> It's not an OS, it's a concept.
<Kurtis> oh
<Kurtis> What is it being used on?
<Tril> Kurtis: have you read our FAQ?
<Kurtis> I guess a mud would use it, right?
<Kurtis> Tril no
<Tril> abi faq
<abi> faq is http://www.tunes.org/Tunes-FAQ.html
<Kurtis> ok
<Tril> Kurtis: Try that first then come back it will probably be easier
<Kurtis> k
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<yoo> i was thinking application organization is silly.
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1127
IRC log ended Sat Nov 27 00:00:00 1999