IRC log started Thu Oct 28 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1028 -:- Nick [user5884@202.54.33.89] has joined #tunes -:- jose [user5655@202.54.33.89] has joined #tunes hi is there anyone on the line 12:30am -:- SignOff td: #TUNES (td has no reason) -:- jose1 [user2889@202.54.33.89] has joined #tunes -:- jose1 [user2889@202.54.33.89] has left #tunes [] -:- jose [user5655@202.54.33.89] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff Nick: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (bbl) -:- water [water@tnt-9-26.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes I am pregnant with an idea. People around me wonder at my confusion and hypocrisy. I find it difficult to be at peace with my environment lately. But I am in a stage of birthing. I am thinking for two, my brain-child and I. 03:00am Those relating to me via IRC wonder even more that I am so full of conflict, yet invoke Taoist philosophy. In truth, I am a sleeper. "water" is my true name, but I use it because for now I am not it. When the time comes, I will have no need for such a name, because people will look at me and see the water. It has been so before, and it will be again, if the universe is willing. -:- water [water@tnt-9-26.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] 03:10am -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us821.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial863.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Hey guys hey this one is worthy of the topic line... philosophical Jerry Springer: http://www.primenet.com/~benmoss/humor/springer.html read till you weep hmm -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System || philosophical Jerry Springer 08:40am Anyone want to talk? hmm, what about? 08:50am arrow what should break if i install glibc2.1? your TV set oh wait, that's wrong -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB i haven't got one ... hopefully my roommates tv set didn't break -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann heh 09:00am I'll be back later -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (FOO! "Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber) 09:10am -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes hi binEng 10:10am hi brb 10:20am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-108.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey 01:20pm hello 01:30pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us345.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp67.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 2 days, 5 hours, 25 seconds ago, saying: hm, well, i'll be back :) you have a good day :) [Tue Oct 26 10:10:49 1999] 03:20pm !asimov.openprojects.net!! Received :devlin.openprojects.net SERVER irc.linux.com from devlin.openprojects.net !?! hey, this is all beging logged now? what is? the irc channel yes TUNES logs it 04:00pm cool it is updated realtime hmm looking at the OS review subproject too bad it's not indexed hello log file 8) 04:10pm water will read the log if you say something interesting nothing interesting to say right now other than figuring out my OS requirements like how hard is it for an OS to deal with up to 4 video pixel depths at once? at once? what do you mean? I mean top layer running at 16-color (for icons) next at 256-bit (for deeper functions) and possibly a layer for 16-bit and 24-bit color wouldn't that be windowing systems work? just curious anyway, in X, you can have programs running on different depths 04:30pm -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.134.185.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey hey -:- lucag [lucag@wagner.maps.susx.ac.uk] has joined #tunes 04:40pm -:- lucag [lucag@wagner.maps.susx.ac.uk] has left #tunes [] bbl -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) 05:20pm -:- water [water@tnt-10-107.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey water hey hey well, it's really nice to be berated in front of the entire mlist by a stodgy academic :( the shapiro phd guy? yeah * eihrul/#tunes pictures Bjarne Stroustrup whenever he sees his postings. i don't quite know why :) not familiar with his style you don't know who bjarne stroustrup is? i know who he is (c++) i just have no idea what he's like well, i said that jokingly, and you didn't take it as such :) sorry, i have no idea what the joke was about it was vague and ill-formed 05:30pm shapj got himself slashdotted smkl: how so? -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by king.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lucas.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lucas.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lucas.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lucas.openprojects.net) -:- lucas.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(5)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(249)] 43% -:- [invisible users on irc(336)] 57% -:- [ircops on irc(12)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(585)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(32)] (avg. 18 users per server) -:- [total channels created(153)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !lucas.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 9 (8 clients) !lucas.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 2 ca 2(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [ water ] [ eihrul ] [ hcf ] [ Downix ] [ Fare ] [ Zhivago ] [ smkl ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.587 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES he worked on eros? or rather is? i guess i'm asking about what "slashdotted" means. thousands of slashdot readers visit your site at once -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes and off or 'slashdot' your web server er.. ok .......................LOGFILE 1999.1028 tis not malicious, just due to the high quantity of hits the site draws why'd they do that to him? oh slashdot gets well over a million reads per day IIRC yup it is the largest pure internet news org out there if they post a link to your site, five minutes later, it'll be down :) not true 7 minutes, at least 8) not completely true but generally heh if your system can't handle it it weeds out those junk servers in seconds 05:40pm slashdot is a heavy resource tho * eihrul/#tunes slams his head. it does not want to grok formalisms today without pain sorry ti hear ut hehe sorry to hear it * water/#tunes tries to figure out how to improve his relationship with people. well, i mean physical pain, as in migraines ow your writing is steadily improving :) though the migraines aren't helping my thought process maybe if /. gets popular enough, it should mirror sites that it references on its own servers a bit drastic, but maybe necessary some day water: Suggest it me? post to /.? sure um no thanks !irq:*! any axur people here? want me to? would you? !wichert:*! axur? wazzat? sure thanks let me finish tinkering with magic * water/#tunes sighs in relief 05:50pm i would just hate the possibility that i would get involved in slashdot discussion it scares me why? nah, it's fun yeah, but i wouldn't handle it well * Downix/#tunes has done it, even been granted a "beneficial post" back a few times come on the waters fine, jump on in! sorry, getting rebuked by shapiro has really make me think s/make/made hehe what were you rebuked about? childishness, i suppose ok so, what does everyone think about IBM dumping the PC line finally? * water/#tunes hides and what new evil did they replace it with? or did they not? they did not IBM is officially, entirely, and forever out of the PC business they stated what business are they in then? same as they always were, workstations, servers, supercomputers and mainframes with the power series of chips, i guess doh, forgot about those :) I'd wager so water: what is the notion of 'returning'? where do the returned arrows go? well, they don't really go anywhere the context travels to them, i guess but i haven't worked that out yet not precisely, anyway i almost see two paths maintained by arrow 06:00pm how so? * eihrul/#tunes is trying to think of an adequate word for the second path... i guess a progress and a state hmm something that says to apply G to X and then something storing X and eventually the resultant Y which is very analogous to a program :) well, in a persistent store, since Y=G(X), Y constitutes redundant information constructed from X and G oh sure that reminds me of 'exploring logical dynamics' where modes and projections transform programs to statements and vice versa er.. switch that :) * water/#tunes composes some email for the mlist i'll have to address that aspect of arrow at some point, but not just yet so how would you represent applying the G to X? probably a selection made by an arrow i know, it's cheesy, but it's the most precise thing i can say just now {G, X}? sure but what context it fits into, i'm not sure 06:10pm * eihrul/#tunes ponders. no! eh? you got something against me pondering? no migraines for you :) now what happens if X is the result an application.... then you apply an application to a function just like in lisp (this isn't a final answer) so X wouldn't be directly pointed to but rather the {G, Z} that causes it... ? but if X is the function application, then you're directly referring to it ok.... you could abstract the function application as a symbol, but i don't have a formal framework for it * eihrul/#tunes has a mental picture of a list of such arrows specifying applications. ok wherein an application possibly points to a previous application as its inputs yeah, that's higher-order functional thinking that almost seems like a syntax tree to me well, it's trivial syntax, just like lisp hopefully, i can formalize infinite-sized structures of that kind as well to work with non-computable things -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us345.javanet.com]) 06:20pm -:- Chazfh [don_tmailm@2Cust120.tnt1.stl1.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes i just recompiled my kernel for the first time to get sound support and it works but when it plays a sound file wierd noises come out of my speakers instead of the sound file i played? and one got any advice? hmm, not sure 06:40pm -:- Chazfh [don_tmailm@2Cust120.tnt1.stl1.da.uu.net] has left #tunes [] water: umm, wow... i didn't see this new shapj post before m so you are both schizophrenic and responsibility-phobic cumulatively :) that again was a vague joke for the humor impaired i doubt anyone will defend me 06:50pm i just sent out some arrow explanations on mlist? i don't think that replying to the prof will help me or tunes in any way yes very correct retaliation would give him more reason to belittle you unless it is polite :) i really hate adults someday, i'd like to overturn society not violently, but... even revolutions seeking peaceful ends don't happen peacefully well, i meant physical violence yes, revolutions have lots of that... driving people crazy by presenting them ideas can possibly obviate the need for bloodshed i use 'crazy' loosely i don't think there is any way to overturn conservative (capitalism) well, i have hopes world wide depression could do it and some revolutions don't need violence at all, except as the old powers are strangled by their own inflexibility -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us343.javanet.com] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes ponders: "The Glorious Revolution" of England good example of that :) heh 07:00pm * water/#tunes sighs -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes i'm just depressed now from? shapiro's condescention er.. s/t/s 07:10pm that in itself was a little bit harsh well, that's your opinion the rest of tunes might not think so and Fare has been known to kow-tow excessively to Shapiro * eihrul/#tunes hasn't known Fare to do much of anything. just notice how he responds to shapiro compared to how he responds to others :P i can't ignore it 07:20pm did not say to yeah, but there's a fine line for me between ignoring and replying perhaps the best i can really do is to try not to reply no... you just need to do so with patience and courtesy which i don't have i'm like a mother in late-term pregnancy i have this incredible idea which i can't share yet with just anyone i didn't have it either until my ego got bruised by the repurcussions thereof when was that? not too long ago on the mlist? no oh not that recently i just lurk on the mlist 07:30pm damn, i wrote too much in my last post the worst that can happen is that it unintentionally answers someone else's questions :) i just hope i don't turn people off by sounding too enthusiastic that's not what's turning people off it is the rabidness you sometimes use to that end ugh why must the one with this idea be the one who is so mal-adjusted? intelligence is a reaction? maybe maybe i just have to be clever to get people to like me darn it, that sounds too plausible no, just reflective heh model other people through yourself, golden rule :) other people definitely don't want what i do 07:40pm i did not mean it in quite that way i know, but it is still true my psychology seems very alien to most people i meant it in the sense that you do not like professors discrediting your ideas harshly nor do they like to be discredited harshly hm how did i discredit him, then? or try not shapiro or appear to oh but i don't discredit, i offer a paradigm no offense, but you do use some instances of the word "idiot" oh, you're not talking about prof's, you're talking about tunesers * eihrul/#tunes nods. they do no research!!! they don't look at what's there sorry, it drives me crazy they look at 'pop' comp sci issues and ignore the unpopular things heh... 'pop' computer science culture most of them are computer scientists though :) not imo i see lots of 'comp sci' books that are for users of development tools "here's what you get. comp sci is what you make of it." and that comp sci seems way too deeply rooted in arbitrary useless issues for useless ideas they do get use out of them but nothing like what we want for tunes 07:50pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) bleh... well, i'll be afk for a little while -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp67.lvdi.net]) -:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving) hm 08:10pm -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes water: heh, I read your rant. water: you neglect the flip side of that though what's that? you've produced nothing with arrows yourself. so shoot me * Zhivago/#tunes shoots water. * water/#tunes keels over dead. Its one thing to have a crackpot idea, and then produce something. ah! much better. its another to have a crackpot idea, and produce nothing. yeah, well, my specs posts will help change that however, it is unbecoming to shout and rant and rave about people who are actually producing things. water: oh good. are you on the mlist? no, I don't think so. I've been disillusioned with tunes for a fair while. well, i am too i knew about it when it began well, a large amoutn of the problem seems to be that most of the active people are highschool kids. about 5 years ago but i only joined a year ago hmm, I saw it a few years back, when I was involved with the lispos lists well, i ahven't actually joined. i am just vocal on the mlists it had relatively similar goals, but no substance. sigh if there were a lispos actually running, it would factor out some noise from tunes and for some reason fare and I could never quite communicate likewise, until recently well, I'm slowly working on it, but I have commercial work to do as well. eating is a convenience I am unwilling to forego heh 08:20pm just wish demoncrat would finish his contract, as he did most of the compiler work and I'm not sure of the cleanest way to raise the instructions. what product are you talking about? water: hmm, vapour. heh the single-space pvm lisp-os. well, i'm trying as hard as i can to take the idea that obsessed me when i was young and make it real heh, likewise. that's all i really want, and no one else seems to want it well, you're incapable of expressing yourself sensibly about it. needs examples. it's because i've been so alone working on it what have you done to test arrow's practicality? sorry, i do really need attention that i don't get (sorry to get personal) mostly the reasoning for the spec, and the smalltalk code it's taken me years just to develop the arrow idea from nothing to something that now almost has substance ok, but why not design a rally really simple system, and represent it arrow style. othewise how can you know if this is actually a useful idea? i *am* water: i work alone on brix and have no problem making others understand it the arrow style is not a programming language oh good :) air: yeah, but brix is a pretty conventional system air: but your idea can be compared with others Zhivago: no it isnt air: wherease arrows is mostly mumbo jumbo at the moment. air: hmm, what's unconventional about it? zhivago: just take some time reading the arrows paper Zhivago: no other OS does what it does air: you have a bunch of protected chunks which talk IPC at each other. zhivago: besides, the paper requires a hell of a lot of theory from mathematics to grok air: well, what's unique to it? Zhivago: uhh, no water: that's why ther's no point reading it. water: give me a system built from arrows, and I'll understand it. zhivago: exactly what i've been working on zhivago: the paper helped me work out ideas zhivago: consider it an open journal water: good :) water: when do you expect to have a system for inspection? hmm abi, brix? brix is at http://www.qzx.com/brix say, the turn of the millenium hmm, that's a long time for a simple system you can't like describe the relationships between dick, jane, and spot? just a couple of months away those relationships are very vague read McCarthy papers? like the one in particular on contexts? air: there was a page on brix describing what it actually did, but it seems to have gone away. water: I think I have, but quite a long time ago. -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp130.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes Zhivago: it was outdated 08:30pm air: ok, so there's nothing describing brix's design zhiv: you want copies of my specs posts? Zhivago: not at this time water: oh, I guess so. brian@designix.com.au ok, the first one is nice and short, and the second is a set of note on it air: ok, well, from my memory it looked like a microkernel system with persistence air: which makes is remarkably similar to eros, only without the page grain caps system it does use soemthing like a uk, but no other uk is like it well, I'm interested :) air: squeak-os? what's the difference, its likely that I missed something in the brief description. eih: not quite yah, squeak-os is better :) er... * water/#tunes hides squeak sucks air: how kind :) atleast that is verifiable with squeak brix is a blackbox AFAIK air: so, what's the brix claim to the unique? Zhivago: ill tell u tomorrow cuz im going to bed now fair enough 08:40pm heh, so much crankiness around got my emails yet? yes, they've arrived, just a moment 08:50pm hmm, your axioms aren't clear hmm > The axiom amounts to: > for each arrow X, there is an arrow in "car" whose car is X and whose cdr >is the arrow referred to by X's car slot, and there is an arrow in "cdr" >with the corresponding definition. tere is an arrow in "car" the car of the arrow X?