IRC log started Mon Aug 30 00:00:01 1999 potato doesn't plus using the distirbution kernels suck anyway you should compile your own :P How big of a download am I looking at? as much as you want to download [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0830 How small can I get for Xfree/E/Gnome? that's gonna be kinda big (atleast over 100 MB) maybe a bit less if you're only getting that Hmm, thats gonna be a multiday download Any ideas on how to get my CD to work? nope, cuz i never use the cd ok How unstable is potato? i haven't noticed any problems with it * lar1/#tunes considers using this storm linux he got at linux world I don't wanna do a 300 Mb download gah * lar1/#tunes also considers caldera goodbye -:- SignOff ElGato`: #TUNES (Leaving) debian package management is somewhat simpler than most distributions, though 12:10am while there's a high initial cost, there's much easier maintenance I don't like packages I perger tarballs Is openlinux any good? probably not I dunno what to do I could reinstall RH (again) or I cold go with StormLinux or Caldera OpenLinux What do you sugest? i'd try storm linux if you really must go with the cd, but otherwise, debian Hmm * lar1/#tunes wonders if anyone will be able to help him when things break if he uses Strom s/strom/storm 12:20am isn't storm based off debian? I don't know it should be I jsut know they hake kick ass shirts and I got 2 of em in which case, you get the debian package manager :) .deb I like the corel linux package manager apt-get is 'awesome' apt-get update;apt-get upgrade upgrades my whole box REALLY?!?! jah * lar1/#tunes drools 12:30am I checked the webpage, storm is debian based I gonna go with storm methinks 12:40am good choice 01:10am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving) I better be off -- sleep later all -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (RavenOS -- Its mine, I can plug it) 02:10am -:- SignOff Crimson: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Crimson[chaosdev.org]) -:- SignOff Plundis: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Plundis[chaosdev.org]) -:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes * Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Sat Aug 14 22:23:00 1999 -:- Fare3053 is now known as Fare -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us824.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- juj-u [ingwarukr@195.230.157.50] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff juj-u: #TUNES (Leaving) anyone awake? -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-37.ici.net] has joined #tunes 07:10am hoy Downix hey hcf wanna see pi, the movie? I do actually, why? abi: pi? i guess pi is pi: the movie, on sundance channel in sep. times: 11 12a; 14 3:30p; 15 12a, 7:30a; 19 2p; 20 12a; 25 11:35a; 26 2a; 29 5p; 30 2a nice 07:20am -:- SignOff Crimson: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Crimson[chaosdev.org]) -:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes * Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Sat Aug 14 22:23:00 1999 -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us242.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us824.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by bear.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from norton.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is norton.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from norton.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 13 24:47 EDT(from norton.openprojects.net) -:- norton.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(6)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(187)] 42% -:- [invisible users on irc(259)] 58% -:- [ircops on irc(16)] 4% -:- [total users on irc(446)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(31)] (avg. 14 users per server) -:- [total channels created(146)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !norton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 13 (11 clients) !norton.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System -:- topic set by hcf [Sun Aug 29 12:18:52 1999] -:- [Users(#Tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [@Tril ] [ abi ] [ hcf ] [ Crimson ] [ Downix ] [ terrorist ] [ Fare ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.384 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- SignOff Crimson: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Crimson[chaosdev.org]) -:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes * Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Sat Aug 14 22:23:00 1999 -:- ElGato [no@216.120.17.43] has joined #tunes hoy ElGato hola hcf ElGato: given up on lengua yet? ;) no :P i've almost finished the hand written (fare: very well factored) lexical anylizer and i mean it's a forth like language so parsing is practically non existant unless i have a change of ideas :( 09:30am hey elG hi 09:40am -:- MaxD [fedro70@a94.teseo.it] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ElGato[216.120.17.43]) -:- MaxD [fedro70@a94.teseo.it] has left #tunes [] -:- ElGato` [no@216.120.17.23] has joined #tunes HI FRIENDS 11:30am what does orthogonal mean ? in this context, independent. -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us808.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf wb two aspects A and B of a system C are independent if for any a in A and b in B, there is c in C such that a and b are the aspect views of c ... i sorta get that but you'll have to be more specific go roam on the net, find an article that explains it well, and post the url on review@tunes.org and if no such article exists, consider it an exercise to write one ...i guess i'll just code some 11:50am mind you i write at the 9th grade level ;P 12:00pm -:- SignOff ElGato`: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ElGato`[216.120.17.23]) -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-gnaps-37.ici.net]) -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) -:- alb [Libertad@200.26.55.20] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff alb: #TUNES (bbias) -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes huwo -:- ElGato` [no@209.68.229.240] has joined #tunes -:- Miellaby [sgarden@St-Brieuc-4-158.club-internet.fr] has joined #TUNES Hello salut miellaby :) hey elgato, long time no see hi core :D elgato: how's your language? how's your baby clemintine good still on the lexer (doing it by hand) :( mmm.. alive and well.. reaching usefulness :) well, paris didn't build in a day, as us stupid french say :) but i did get the dragon book recently dragon book? cool. great piece of dead trees :) :P hehehe although like everyone knows, my ideas for lengua are constantly changing seriously it's a neat book on compiler design; i didn't design one (someone else wrote the interface compiler for clementine :), but it was interesting to read. life is change :) im considering a forth like language with a high level stack and better reflection :\ with such a set of goals, my 4th kid should be in university by then :-) (and i don't have any at the moment, not that i know of anyway, but working on it :) the problem is that quoting in forth would be really hard to implement 4th kid? hehe.. yeah. just to measure the amount of time required to implement your work ;) ... :( :D just teasing.. :) self.silly = FALSE; 01:00pm ah, better. the problem is, where does the quoting word stop going donw the stack :P or you could slowly put each item onto the data structure one by one hm, you need to think it in terms of a stack i guess :) oh well forth...stack...yeah core they're kinda related ;) lol.. shush up i mean.. making a word the 'quote' .. and that everything on the stack becomes quoted when you see that word? *shrug* i have slept 35 mins last night, so don't mind me too much if i can't express myself ;) the cooly thing about forth like languages is that parsing is practically non existant :D i suppose quoting will be like adding :\ well, that's the entire point, you see an element, you stack it, or you perform operations on the stack :) yeah, that's what i mean. push add...push add...push add wouldn't that work? yes see ;) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-264.ici.net] has joined #tunes and then i must think about how one would make a pointer to a word (words being objects too) because all data is addressed by pointers (like scheme) so code can be addressed as data and in turn put onto the stack i hate to add it to the syntax :( -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ 01:10pm Tril: core's here, talk about the review proj hi core core: have you looked at my database schema yet? mabye his girl friend pulled him back into bed ;) brb (0xf00d) 01:20pm back * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] 01:30pm could someone explain what all this high-order stuff means all i see is high-order this high-order that 01:40pm * Miellaby/#TUNES is reading the review of operating systems from TUNES pages. new here? 02:00pm yep I used to have an OS project. I found TUNES web pages (which have been recently recorded by AltaVista). Now, I still hope in something. let me be the first one to welcome you here :D Miellaby: do u have a web page for your os? hcf: no sorry. just a bunch of hand-written pages. (I though Building an OS from scratch was considered as a silly idea). (for common mortals) heh lot's of people do it well we aren't mortals ;) so it isn't our problem I like the serious organization of TUNES project. I wished I could be as much professional when I'm dreaming =). tunes, serious? LOL! heh tunes will never exist, derivitive OS'es will tho we don't think of it that way sometime downix is dumb :P don't listen to him still though...tunes...isn't very motivated although i suppose it's everyone's fault ElGato`: Tunes has a lot of great ideas, but at it's current pace, I don't see it going anywhere including mine 02:10pm ElGato`: nah, its ALL ur fault ElGato`: But there are small sub-teams in the project that are building great OS's out of tunes, so in a way, tunes is alive, but in a way it's not. well if fare would just pick a damn language to bootstrap(hcf: snarf :P) from then we could get somewhere ElGato`: Easy pick: C. * Downix/#tunes works in C. It's solid, proven, and I understand it ElGato`: (where | from whom) did u learn that 'snarf' meant bootstrap? too many goddamned languages out there no a scheme tutorial ElGato`: which one i think it should be scheme or forth that fare chooses scheme didn't impress me much, and fourth is alright, albeight slow ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/cs345/schintro-v14/schintro_toc.html bah i am addicted to c like a junky is addicted to heroin :( i cannot stop programming in it ElGato`: same here (joke) but C isn't a great language you can do nice things in C if you have method and dedication. it was never made to be a great language i think i do, even if that sounds like vanity :) i figure i'll use a common language to create my own language core: I think I do as well. which is c downix: i never talked to you, but i skim through logs, and you sound like an impressive hardware junkie. all my respect then :) and welcome :) core: Does it show through that much? * Downix/#tunes is right now hacking around on his Amiga's a bit downix: i have an A4000/040/25 left to my peecee and alpha, it's collecting dust but still playing mods :) downix: well, someone who knows the difference between a 68000 and 68008 at bus level, sort of gives it away yes :)) well fare better pick something soon core: Mine's an A1200/060/75:603/160 core: hehe downix: damn you, i didn't upgrade to the PPC generation :) downix: does linux/APUS boot on your setup? core: Be glad you didn't, APUS is worthless. I'm switching back to the 68k core: it works, but performance lacks. I'd rather have the 060 downix: i can't judge, i haven't tried it, for lack of a ppc amiga card; but i have linuxppc running on my bebox, which sucks more than a black hole. downix: i have a GVP 060 card, but it doesn't work with an A4000 mobo revision C (alice rev 11 or somesuch), joy. core: LinuxPPC/APUS isn't a great setup I've found. Linux Alpha and MIPS are muich better RISC solutions. core: Mine's a Blizzard board downix: well, of all the riscs i have home, linux runs the fastest on sparc, actually. and of all the riscs i have at work, it runs the fastest on ultrasparc :-) core: Never used a SPARC aren't amigas like low clock speed? core: Out of the ones I have, the MIPS run great. i've never used one before ElGato`: Depends on the model and CPU You should perhaps switch to an other channel :) ? downix: my mips (at work, bleh :) runs irix unfortunately. linux won't boot on my R10K O2 :( ElGato`: The highest end Amiga prototypes that CBM made were PA-RISC machines, so those weren't slow at all (which is a great box, i just wish it had the same level of crossbarability as an O200 :=) core: THat stinks. If you've checked the logs you know what my company is doing with MIPS. 02:20pm elgato: clock speed isn't all. the design rocked. you could hardly tell the difference between a 14 mhz 68020 amiga under amigaOS and a 25 mhz 386 PC under win 3.1, when using both. seriously. downix: i missed that? embedded? cool core: It was the Commodore Hombre', their next-gen Amiga design. aren't they like cheap too? downix: are you serious? they were designing a mips based box ?! ElGato`: Cheap? You could say that,m better performance than a Mac at half the cost. core: i'm serious. I even know the guy who was doing the primary work. He gave me help on my own design. downix: not dave "my computers are delivered with a hammer" haynie? ElGato`: The key to the Amiga, de-centrilizing system functions. The CPU did less work than in any other system. oh good thing to port tunes to then :D core: No, he was AGA. Hombre was the brainchild of Ed "3D is cooler than shit" Hepler ElGato`: Probably downix: oh, the guy who moved to the 3DO sinking boat ? core: Right. core: great designs, but he has a bad habit of picking the wrong companies elgato: basically the 68K in the amiga did "did the graphics cpu finish yet? no; did the sound cpu finish yet? no? ok, i'll finish compiling stuff then." downix: obviously :) but the habit of picking the right cpus at the time (68K, mips..) ...oh my brother was talking about his "ideas" like that i guess he's behind his own time core: Actually, he picked PA-RISC in 1992, which was an excellent choice at the time. (MIPS III hadn't been introduced, the MIPS company was going bankrupt) elgato: the amiga was ahead of its time; by large. but i'm not going to whine about how great the old times were; i moved on :) * Downix/#tunes nods :D I myself turned to them for inspiration for my own work this sounds...intruiging too bad I lack the capacity to produce it downix: the pa-risc kicked ass. i remember when they were discussing its adoption at cbm france (i floated around that place at the time), and the (shudder) possible adoption of windows/NT on it to replace amigaOS (shudder). perhaps an amiga would not be a bad investment in the future elgato: with the team of morons that lead amiga inc, now. i'm sorry, it is. core: I saw AmigaOS for PA-RISC, it rocked. downix: what's your work now, if not NDA-covered (which i would understand) ? oh ElGato`: THe new Amiga is a POS well with how cheap m68k's are you can just make your own system :D just read any jim "my tie prevents oxygen from going to my brain" collas' "technical papers" and you'll understand. core: I'm trying to start a computer company. Pain in the ass, I don't have the money to produce any of the chip designs, so I'm looking at off-the-shelf now to prove concept. ah yes they are all suits? ElGato`: I'm using MIPS CPU's now elgato: actually, people do; the dragonball CPU (in the palmpilot) is a 68328 or somesuch, a 68K derivative. suits will never create good computers downix: that rocks. i'll buy your hardware. if you didn't see the pattern, i buy lots of hardware :-) ibm tought us that core: it's a 68320 downix: and i'll get clementine to run on it :) core: Well, that is IF I can produce it. downix: ah yeah, thanks. right :) downix: i know nada about hardware, besides its programmatic interfaces and all the parts of any computer produced since 1980 ;), but i'll get clementine to run in if you produce it, and it's not too weird :-) if i ever get into hardware i might play around with cheap processors core: well, it's similar idea to the Amiga, just fixed a lot of the issues, plus added features downix: ok, when can i buy one? :) ElGato`: You want cheap, 6502 CPU's are dirt dirt cheap hahaha core: never at this rate. 17 months and I can't write a business plan worth dirt. i like the 6502 but do they still make em? ElGato`: Yup. heh ElGato`: There's a new 16-bit version, the 65816 downix: i went through that (business plans), my company just got past its first round of financing finally. you have my sympathy :) core: hehe, I could use a hand! larger registers wouldn't be a bad edition 02:30pm how large are the registers on the m68k's? downix: well, our line was to undersell our design, not promise anything that was a pipe dream, but be very confident in ourselves. must have worked :) elgato: 32 bits wide as far as programmers are concerned ;) core: do you have your own company? elgato: all 8 data and 8 address (including stack) of them, plus all control regs. elgato: i'm part of one anyway. oh :D core: Well, I've been doing that. From my current estimations the chipset I have designed, w/o the 3D copper (which isn't done yet) is doing 1.4 BFLOP elgato: i'm not an employee, if that's what you're wondering. core: but I'm scaling that down QUITE a bit so I don't sound crazy are there any *cheap* cpu's that are stack architectures? downix: 'B' ? elgato: the 68K has predecrement and postincrement that ease stacks a *lot*. core: Billion downix: oh.. mmmmm :-) hmmm core: see why it sound a BIT like a pipe dream? downix: yeah.. but what do you know, what's a pipe dream today is real tomorrow, and not coming from you, unless you believe in it, usually and what exactly do you do core? &downix too downix: i can't tell how many ideas i had, that i saw marketed after i thought i wouldn't dedicate myself to them. so i'm not giving up on the current one ): core: Well, mostly I could use help with the business plan. ElGato`: Right now I'm collecting data on 3D work for my own designwork downix: i don't know the US investors tho.. that sounds like a crazy market elgato: i'm developing clementine as you know. :) core: Same here. I can point to at leasta dozen ideas including netzero for a living elgato: i'm developing clementine for a living core: I'd rather not be in the uS to be honest, it's a pain in the ass w/ how much the government has gone corrupt :D are you actually being paid ?! downix: well, as a visitor, i like the USA quite; i feel a bit like i live in an underdeveloped country, technology-wise :) * Downix/#tunes figured out that a WebTV would be huge back in 1990 * Downix/#tunes shakes his head heh...you euros so silly core: The problem isn't the technology, it's the government. core: of course I'm a natural socialist. elgato: yes, i tried to work on it in my spare time when the friction of my ideas and fare's beliefs produced the idea of it, but i had no motivation, so i made it so that it would become my main job by gathering a company around it, now the drawback is i must wait to make it open, but it's coming, as announced :) downix: my girlfriend is american, and would agree with you ;) i am american core: If I could support myself w/o a full time job, I would be going to school to better educate myself. Of course if I had the money I'd hire Ed Hepler yes the government here is very restricting we aren't as free as we are lead onto believe ElGato`: I know. Freedom is an illusion here i hope in the future i will still be able to make such a statement without jepordizing my own freedom downix: i have BSc. level education; i make more than the people at suntech who are engineers, and it's only going up. don't worry about it :) core: I have a high school education, a big handicap in this country core: i lack patience for college downix: where you from? ElGato`: New Hampshire :D downix: oh :) yeah, i suppose you could use bsc or msc to be hired by suit types.. and i also lacked patience for lowly things like college :) * ElGato`/#tunes is from california (our phd'ish fare would disagree, but oh well :) ElGato`: it's better here than in states like Conneticut sweet home california core: I don't want to be hired, I want to do the hiring -:- SignOff Miellaby: #TUNES (Leaving) why do you say that (someone i know quite well is from connecticut) 02:40pm ? downix: i do the hiring now. [and yes, fare, clem will be opensourced as expected :-] ElGato`: In Conneticut, they have a law that if you are arrested you cannot be found innocent. D: core: Open source is the smart way to make money connecticut is like a big lie ElGato`: Which is why I have a criminal record. downix: i think so too; it's either keeping it proprietary and being washed over by people who will make a GPL clone ; or playing the opensource game by the rules, losing control of the baby, but becoming a standard maybe, and doing the right thing, morally. ElGato`: When the judge threw out the evidence, found me innocent, the law required me to be convicted on a conspiracy charge, which ment I could go home, but I have a record. and i'm more after technological advance (and fame, okay :) than money, anyway. (well, i don't mind some of that either, at least to sustain my future family :) some research said that connecticut is the most technologically ready for the year 2000 but i know that their phone system is quite old and exploitable core: I know. That is why I'm sticking to hardware, even GPL'd hardware is difficult to copy. downix: what you do? core: whatever OS I use for my system will be open sourced downix: no kidding. i found like this was a very bad joke, when sun "opensourced" their sparc designs. to get a criminal record downix: i'm afraid i don't have a plant to make sparcs, so this didn't get me very far. ElGato`: Nothing, my grandfather committed purgery in order to get out of paying a credit card charge I made on the card he'd given me. They arrested me, since I am the one who bought it. When I submitted the recipts from over 20 other purchases on the same card, to give proof that I had auth, the case was dropped and I was convicted. i gotta go :( bye D: later -:- SignOff ElGato`: #TUNES (Leaving) downix: clementine will be; the way it is designed, it cannot be kept closed anyway; you could rewrite it piece after piece. core: Hehe. I know. SPARC's are nice, I liked the source. core: Hmm. Nice * Downix/#tunes finished downloading debian for Amiga downix: everything is distributed into components, so you can't have a central authority, in the system, or in the real world :) core: Agreed. * Downix/#tunes at one time debated using SPARC's for his CPU downix: think of it as a crossover between amiga libraries and corba IDL without the stupid code stubs :) but I can't get enough info on them * Downix/#tunes nods -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp111.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes sounds like an OS I'd like on my intended platform * Downix/#tunes has been learning more about how the Amiga worked in the past few days than he ever thought he would Gateway 2000 is being a dumb schmuck it's not a pipe dream either, it works :) nice I know my design works, at least in synth core: so when are you releasing clementine? :P eihrul: openly? this fall cool gah... it's close enough 02:50pm hum hum toi meme :) * Downix/#tunes smiles preums! t'es deuze, c'est moi qui gagne! ouais bon hein, je peux pas etre au four et au moulin (si c'est le moulin ici, ce n'est pas la peine de faire des commentaires sur le four :) kwa29? toujours la moitie de 18 clementine avance.. :) je me sens nascze. malade? nul. pquoi? pasque j'avance pas. fais les choses une a la fois ;) d'abord le fameux LANGAGE et le COMPILO qui vont avec.. hein hein? :-) ouais, ouais... 03:00pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@209.94.146.76] has joined #tunes brb all DATR is a purely functional domain-specific language for linguistic applications at http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/lab/nlp/datr/datr.html 03:20pm ah, well, you're asking for trouble then :-) oops. was supposed to go to /msg. -:- SignOff core: #TUNES (Ping timeout for core[core.suntech.fr]) -:- ]AnimaL] [jayabdal@pm3-05.wmbg.widomaker.com] has joined #Tunes 03:30pm -:- ]AnimaL] [jayabdal@pm3-05.wmbg.widomaker.com] has left #Tunes [] dern, where'd core go off to? 03:40pm fare: are you atk? no okay, good i have a question regarding how blocking processes should be implemented if a process A is blocked on a process B, do i: A) maintain a list on process B of all processes dependent upon it becoming ready and then go through that list when it does become so or B) every time process A's turn to run comes around, poll process B for it (B) simplifies some things, but i'm slightly worried about it's efficiency what is "being blocked on a process B" ? process A has done a synchronous send to process B that's synchronous procedure call * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 2 hrs 21 min 35 secs but process B has not done the complementary synchronous receive 03:50pm