IRC log started Tue Aug 24 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0824 um fare...are you awake? 01:30am wb [@TUNES ] ok im leaving 02:00am hi, boys lo, girls im on a faster, better and more stable line than ever. =) 05:20am I want to run BeOS on my computer. Were can I get it? C ya later. 05:50am hello que tal, ElGato ole hi pop-11 isn't all that great it just reminds me too much of c 07:20am hey smkl hello ElGato how's finland? fine ... :D i always ask people from finland that every time we talk EG: pop-11 is interesting in its cross-language capabilities in its interactive stack architecture, too it has the stack... just not a very strong language ? strong? er as i said it reminds me of c :D 07:30am pop-11 ? rumour has it pop-11 is interesting in its cross-language capabilities pop11 ? um it's the language that has a stack and stuff but is too much like c :P poplog? i heard poplog was now freely available at ftp://ftp.cs.bham.ac.uk/pub/dist/poplog/freepoplog.html elgato: is LISP still your favorite lang? stack sounds like a low level mechanism 07:40am oh sorry i like scheme and forth both equally stack is low level for forth your spoiled or mabye now damnit mabye not mabye im just dumb and talking too much heh Scheme Underground what is poplog? rumour has it poplog is now freely available at ftp://ftp.cs.bham.ac.uk/pub/dist/poplog/freepoplog.html stack is high-level in poplog or in HP RPL 07:50am what's the difference of a stack being high or low level GC, bounds checking, etc. ah someone mentioned a stack based implementation of c (very vaguely heard of it? would asm be high level if it had GC and bounds checking? 08:00am sure well, it'd be higher-level than it is. but it'd also be mostly a waste of silicon also maybe not (see LISP machines) fare: stack based c nm this person took it back you can type check asm to made it mostly checked s/made/make smkl: isn't it precisely what the Fox PCC thingy is about? fare did you take a crack at crack.linuxppc.org? =) fare: not really sure .. there is also talc 08:10am hello hi, Zhivago hi what's up, ElGato fare: zhivago is into the same stuff you are im misleading him with my lack of understanding actually, I'm mostly after a version of retro which compiles :) gee i wish fare would pay attention to the channel just idle for a while hmm, fare and I had some miscommunications a year or two ago on a mail-list uh oh Dr. Zhivago Dr. sr zhivago are you into OS development? sr: yes sr: and I freely admit that I want a working retro dist, so that I can rip off its bootcode. sr: but I'm entirely happy to pass on various bits back im pretty sure boot.asm is error free el: that's ok but lazy paul had to commit his shitty serial.asm el: I'm not into low level x86 to start with, so what I really need is something which mostly works elgato: what's bad about serial.asm? ah yes el: and from that position fixing is relatively easy 08:20am sr: hundreds of errors and the retro module stuff seems to be broken too well guys i gotta go at the moemnt I'm looking at LittleOS as well, but at this point I'd prefer to avoid grub, and just make simple images move onto grub as an option at some point in the future btw im writing a language too zhivago: isn't LittleOS at a stand-still? sr: yes, but I'm not developing it, I'm just nicking boot-code i just happen to be somewhat unfamilier with some tunes concepts sr: I have a compiler, we produce native x86 code with it, and I have an elf producer sr: I'd like to add an x86-boot-image target ok bye sr: and I don't know what I'm doing wrt real/pmode stuff and booting cool sr: so I need a test platform to play around with can someone here recommend a computer case Zhivago: bochs? somebody said bochs was a PC emulator at http://www.bochs.com that runs on win32, un*x, beos, mac, os/2 and amiga sr: retro looks ideal so far except for the non-compiling bit sr: I'm using bochs to run it in did you look at OpenBLT? compiler for what kind of language? sr: but I when I say test platform, I mean, something which boots up and lets me play with stuff, etc. sr: hmm, I remember seeing OpenBLT mentioned, but I haven't looked. sr: I'll have a look now www.openblt.org rated #1 in "Little startup OS magazine, issue Summer 1999" then there is ChaOS smkl? i heard smkl was a spam bot who got stranded in #tunes I saw chaos, I didn't really like it zhivago: BRiX and clementine, when they are released sr: I'm really just after some p-mode boot code that I can prepend to my binary image sr: which is what retro seems to do nicely. zhivago: when do you expect your OS to hit the big time? sr: never :) sr: but I expect it to be useful in probably 12 months sr: and hopefully go open within 6 so many OS projects being started, so few will become useful sr: this is true, but then most of them are just rehashes 08:30am sr: or too ambitious in difficult ways Zhivago: i hope your OS is more than a mere rehash sr: well, the focus here is non-conservative security, and reflection sr: so one address space, everything running at ring0/administrator mode/etc everything running at ring0? do you have a trusted compiler or something? sr: persistent journalling virtual memory takes care of most of the rest of the issues, but limits us to 4 gig of space under a 32 bit system sr: yes, trusted compiler * fare/#Tunes is back hello fare fare: do you know if there is a compiling version of retro about somewhere? retro, retro, retro... that's all i ever hear sr: well, its the only product of tunes program-wise that I've seen so far :) sr: so its kind of important :) Zhivago: just use cvs to extract a version that's a little back in time sr: besides which I like the design from what I can see without being able to compile it well there is Tunes-0.81-PR1 Zhivago: or submit a bug fix fare: that is an excellent point, I keep forgetting why we use cvs. Zhivago: why limit us to 4 gig space? that's only for *flat* *32-bit* pointers. fare: well, its not a bug fix, its more that that makefiles are broken. the address space needs be neither flat no 32-bit fare: becasue I don't want to swizzle, and 64 bit machines will become ubiquitous very soon no, the makefiles seem good; the kernel.asm lacks the SCAN_FAT primitive fare: oh, I worked around that, the problem was in the modules. in the modules? did you commit changes? fare: yeah, they didn't want to compile at all. no, I only checked it out fare: let me try now, incase it has become fixed, or there was some problem at my end Zhivago: do a cvs diff, and send it to me and/or tcn fare: the machien its on is elsewhere, but I'm not that fussed with the latest version fare: the obvious suggestion of taking a previous version is what I need to do :) 08:40am Zhivago: do you expect to own a 64-bit machine soon? sr: I'd hope so, but initially 4 gig is enough, if necessary, the memory system should be rewritable to adapt to other conditions, although I don't find the idea attrative zhivago: how is it possible to have an address space larger than 4gb with a 32-bit machine? sr: well, x86 manages it sr: they use a segmented architecture sr: but I'm not keen on that really. sr: but you could always swizzle pointers on mapping sr: which is portable, but less efficient, this is probably the solution I'd use if I was going to extend it. sr: I like flat memory swizzle? sr: well, you have 64 bit references which get mangled on loading into 32 bit pointers sr: then you unmangle them on unloading well, removing the scan-fat and init-fat things from words.inc were enough to make it work, to me... fare: did that also make the modules? sr: by not having a flat pointer space -- besides, that's how linux does it sr: except you must *manually* manage the heterogeneity make the modules? fare: linux addresses more than 4 gig of memory? fare: the .rfd (?) files. I did a make floppy and it compiles and boots fare: ok, I'll grab nasm for this machine, and try it out, either I did something stupid, or its been fixed recently. 08:50am I just committed the change since I've tested that it compiles and boots Zhivago: certainly, linux can address terabytes or memory, split into files fare: a linux process can't. yes it can fare: unless this is something I'm unaware of fare: how does the mapping occur? how can you not have a flat pointer space? no, it's just something you don't see with the right angle fare: I can't mmap() to any place above 3 gig fare: so its not addressing it in any traditional unix fashion sr: by doing explicit read() and write(), for instance stop thinking "flat address space". fare: yes, I undersatnd swizzling a computational "pointer" needn't a machine-level address mask swizzling is another method Zhivago: is that like the cigar Swizzlers :) fare: and I understand what you're saying fare: well, you need to swizzle if you're going to preserve any illusion of homogenity over addressing swizzling is a way of doing it implicitly at the low-level through interrupts. fare: which is what addressing kind of implies, otherwise its just processing of data most people do it in an even simpler way, by translating object access into variable queries. fare: well, the swizzling I'm referring to happens as part of the read process, and hooks into a demand loader for foreign objects 09:00am stop thinking with fixed limits between what the "hardware" and what the "software" do. From the user's point of view, it's just the whole "system" that does it. fare: yes, I understand all of this all hardware tricks are to be considered; all software tricks are to be considered. Zhivago: good. fare: but there is a reason we have hardware, so we can have reasonable perforamnce not forcibly fare: which is why I fully intend to use it :) RISC has shown that less hardware can lead to more performance fare: RISC systems still tend to use MMUs for some reason :) the MMU aspect is independent from the RISC aspect. quite :) the MMU is the major hardware optimisation that I'm looking at using though and sometimes, you wish there was better support for manual faulting, manual cache management, etc. and it makes a huge difference in terms of read/write barriers especially fare: do you think the Merced will upset the world of processors? sr: I suspect the psx2 will have a greater impact, although indirectly. zhivago: are you a fan of console gaming systems? sr: not quite sr: if I want a 64-bit chip, why not already take Alpha, or Sparc64, or HP PA? Assembly HOWTO, by François-René Rideau . Information on programming in x86 assembly. Updated 22 June 1999. sr: 0.5a has been updated 1 August 1999 must make you proud to see your name in the HOWTO list sr: no more; the HOWTO is now maintain by Konstantin Boldyshev or the lightning project s/or/of/ sr: not particualrly, but I see the era of the pc coming to a close sr: I don't think pcs can compete abi: lightning is at http://lightning.voshod.com/ because the Alphas, sparc64s and HPs are hard to obtain, not widely supported, and undocumented zhivago: Dreamcast :) sr: merced wil be aimed at the high end did you see the dreamcast? they *are* documented (at least the Alpha and the sparc64) sr: dreamcast doesn't have what it takes I hate the sparc64, but the alpha seems quite nice. sr: which is an ability to replace the pc at a much lower price Linux/Alpha works just great i'm debating whether to stick with intel for OS dev or buy an Alpha for os dev 09:10am sr: 32 megs of ram, dvd, usb, possible firewire does though. and the Alpha will probably work on those K7 mobos, which will make it more affordable... hopefully alphas will get cheaper its being pin-compatible with K7 will help a lot, I wish. but i can't buy an alpha as i can an intel chip (www.pricewatch.com) it would be good, x86 is an ugly machine sr: do you expect merced to be different? inhappily, an alpha in a X86 motherboard might be ugly, too :) sr: they're aiming it at high end servers Zhivago: Merced will 1) be ugly 2) still have ugly hw compatibility. fare: at least it shouldn't be register starved fare: and have such a fuggly instruction set self quote: As long as software is not free, we'll have hardware compatibility, hence bad, expensive, hardware that has decades-long obsolete design Status: Semi-Supported, Driver Name: 3c501 This obsolete stone-age 8 bit card is really too brain-damaged to use. Avoid it like the plague. Do not purchase this card, even as a joke. It's performance is horrible, and it breaks in many ways. hahaha merced won't be very different in those aspects from the current intel chips * fare/#Tunes is against hardware compatibility I'm for software compatibility source compatibility should be sufficient and declarative software too i declare this land in the name of Tunes! 09:20am smkl how's finland? how is lameness? 12:10pm heh [ TUNES ] [ smkl ] [ hcf ] [ sr ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ eihrul ] [ Plundis ] [ fare ] [ Crimson_ ] 12:30pm [ TUNES ] [ smkl ] [ hcf ] [ sr ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ Crimson_ ] [ fare ] [ eihrul ] [ Plundis ] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ smkl ] [ hcf ] [ sr ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ Plundis ] [ eihrul ] [ fare ] [ Crimson_ ] yay ltns dtm !!! it's good to be back!! :) how are you ladies and gentlemen just like before 12:50pm tunes has changed its title :} what made it expedient? did Fare get a little pep up, like maybe a lobotomy? poor poor Fare my girlfriend is a psychology PhD student so I'm refreshing myself on my sympathy dtm!!! 01:10pm alfkajs;alfajad FAIR! dsfskjh oitus nsdfsa ldf! datum! :D fare: have you moved to CA yet * dtm/#tunes checks fare's /whois i guess not!? >:-/ As I told you, I need 1) to finish my PhD thesis, and 2) to find a job * dtm/#tunes is a personal supporter of famous starving students yes i remember that quite well you know what when i explain TUNES to people, most of them dont get it and those who can, dont tend to care i think it's the "NES" part combined with their "short attention span" what do you try to explain them? i tell them that current software is junk especially considering that I am a gnu/linux y2k "specialist" now for Cygnus i'm thinking that my software should be able to tell me when it has a date problem the N was recon'ed into Nevertheless s/recon/retcon/ yes i see the former N is what got them you work for cygnus? great! to them, the definition is relative i'm contracted by cygnus oh, contracted. RMS has appointed me the coordinator of canonical GNU y2k info i dont want to work here; i want to work at Apple! so I guess you closely follow anything Y2K related... at Apple??? but they are evil proprietary computer makers! haha i closely follow the fact that y2k is a mental/social problem, not a computing problem yes and french people never bathe! the only good guy there was Woz, whom they've buried in secondary projects * dtm/#tunes cajoles and ribs fare get with the 90's, man. John Sculley was fired :} do you realize how much source code apple has liberated http://publicsource.apple.com i have the entire source code to all sub-Finder portions of MacOS X Server not that much. everything below the top user interface. i assume it includes the window system too. and their license was far from agreable hmm:/ well then i'll influence it :) I hope so is the APSL still viewed as "free bug fixes"? dunno; haven't followed it all. Just fuck'em for inventing yet another license. then why was it dissatisfactory in your opinion ah Seeing how their stuff is 90% BSD, they should have kept a BSD license! care to educate me? ok is it true that the BSD license is close to public domain, in that it does not prevent someone from taking away freedoms, like the GPL does? or maybe make a political move and be GPL. Be don't need license fragmentation (see ~fare/articles/ll99/) ha ok you come prepared s/Be/we/ prepared? how very scientific got documentation and everything. :-~ 01:20pm new self quote: Karl Schmidt said that the limit between philosophy and politics is when you have to choose your friends. Choosing the GNU GPL as a software license is definitely a political act under this criterion. hah i'm not sure about that can you briefly explain why I think gpl allows for everyone to play along. the GPL is kind of a mutual friendship agreement. The kind that was done being trading cities in the middle-ages: no one of us will impose barriers at our borders explain the barriers in a software context? afaik it just prevents outright theft, or anything less than total freedom of a unique, free product. it even encompasses playing along with nonfree products correct? i was thinking that it didn't require conformity in any particular way. anyone can still implement a gpl'd product anywhere they want as long as they fully implement it. IP barriers. Did you read my ll99 paper already? negative it shall be done@! maybe it'll help a bit and me and my girlfriend are wanting to travel to europe together Someday... we'll stop by your place. 01:30pm you'll be welcome! be sure to warn in advance, so I may not be abroad myself :) http://www-th.phys.rug.nl/~schut/gnulist.html that document , and the document behind the "booby trap" link at the bottom, are the most useful/meaningful y2k documents i've ever found in my 2 weeks of professional research! when i come visit i'll bring you some American object-oriented multitthreaded garlic pickles from the refrigeration section -- never boiled and then we shall capture you and make you our chauffeur! do you have a heavy french accent? mmmmm pickles did you see that recent Y2K thing on /. ? yes when I speak english to french people I do have a heavy french accent; /. generally regards y2k as a hoax/joke/annoyance 01:40pm when I speak english to english-speaking people, I may be thought a native english speaker for a few seconds. wow. only a few seconds, tho. when I speak french to french- or english-speaking people, i'm usually thought of as silent. for I fumble on very common words. :-/ i see well you type it very well my written english is better than my spoken english sometimes, I have to ask the person I'm talking to to spell a word he uses, and I find out that it's a word I write very often, but could not pronounce or recognize properly! is there a single word for "person I'm talking to" ? that's fascinating hmm... "audience"? :) listener? recipient? dunno. "vis-a-vis" or "interlocuteur", in french. a powerbook G3 series? could you run Linux on it? indeed Linux powerbook.lightsaber.net 2.2.6-15apmac #1 Mon May 31 03:54:09 EDT 1999 ppc unknown i had MacOS X Server on it for a week, as well rats. I couldn't get internal IDE to work with those precompiled kernels. also there's a kernel patch and little applicatino that lets you boot another virtual machine, so you can run linux or MacOS as a linux app 01:50pm on which model? this is G3 *Series* was told to install MkLinux instead, but currently, my mom has it. yup, G3 Series. dtm: what made you switch from macos X to linux? where do you get the "right" kernel sources for ppc? fare from any kernel mirror almost none of the extras that are available from linuxppc-dev list are necessary they're optimizations. or something. not necessary for general utility use sr: 1) linux is totally free, and compatible (X11 is a big one) 2) macOS X has no serial or ppp powerbook is my #1 computer. did you like MacOS X server, though? i take it everywhere sr: yes i took it apart thoroughly and appreciated it very much. it's essentially NeXTStep for ppc it was very easy to use i thought the user interface abstraction layers were done well kind of a dual standard in some ways but NeXTStep is a bit funky -- has some weird ideas that may be technically superior, or that may just be their own standard, but that aren't very common like NetInfo.....yuck it's the kind of thing that either everybody, or nobody, should adopt imho and in the opinion of many MacOS X users inside apple including developers how does it compare to BeOS? but it is definately a gnu platform Jean Louise Gassee is from apple :P BeOS is a funky gnu platform, like os/2 beos is "different" less unixlike less legacy so are you into OS dev/language dev? they could all unite better, and probably won't without full integration of open source ideology i've heard that BeOS's saving quality is its speed sr: i'm as into it as a non-developer possibly can be, and more so than most sr: and user friendliness, and economy of proprietary software... like a good photo/paint package costs $20 for beOS it's technically very robust one of the best OO/relational filesystems i'd like to steal its speed ;) it's like OS/2 times ten, and with much less legacy/compatibility with ignorant ugly crap and put it to use in my OS it's purified essence of OS/2 sr: what's the name of yours? sr: yes i guess that's a good description of beos sr: but that's a very simple statement that means a lot -- it describes what it does and doesn't have. beos is unixlike compared to os/2 haven't decided on a name, i can't tell you much about it because i've a) not started it and b) I probably won't finish it :) JL Gassee is a stupid arrogant french man! sr: heheheh fare: yes down with french men! OS/2 sucks, so does MacOS/X. fare: you suck! no, I *plain* suck * dtm/#tunes waves torches in the air * dtm/#tunes accuses the heretic * dtm/#tunes persecutes dtm: so, didn't you experience problems with the G3 series? With model of series is it? witchhunt dtm: get one of those neat iMacs =) * fare/#Tunes has that horrid one with bad LCD, and no secondary cache. iMacs suck fare: absolutely none. installing linux on an Apple machine is the best linux installation i've ever seen. the only OS installation, PERIOD, that is better, anywhere, is macos. macos installation is HELL! fare: no problems. the only configuration i did of any kind was hard drive partitioning, which i dont even have to do any more. * fare/#Tunes doesn't want to see that again 02:00pm fare: it didnt' ask and i didn't tell -- everything just works. wierd. What model is it? What linuxppc version? R4? R5? what kernel, initially? fare: except power management and display switching. but it inherits any display from MacOS -- ntsc, svga, etc the kernel in R5 won't properly recognize the internal IDE -- it will generate partition corruption after a few hundred megs of transfer it's the Wallstreet model, from March 1999, wiht linuxppc R5 (used to have R4) fare: i've heard of that -- try the FAQ-o-Matic at http://linuxppc.org did the R5 kernel work? "interactive faq" everything works. abi: Excelsior is a computer game similar to Ultima VI, at www.11d.com media bay hotswapping, etc why play a game "similar" to U6, when you can have the real thing? heh diversity sr: i saw an iMac with linuxppc and Applixware, at linuxworld expo improvement imacs just *look* cool the faqomatic sucks! but under the hood, they are lame although i wouldn't really mind if someone gave me a new Powermac G3 with MacOS X server dtm: how much RAM do you have? Do you also have a secondary-cache-deprived model? they're working on USB 1.6 or is it 1.16 i think it's 1.16. fare: do you know PowerPC assembly? sr: essentially, no. dtm: what question in the faq-o-matic? that's the nth time I look through it, w/o answer. I know someone else with same trouble, too are you using a precompiled kernel? which? if not, can you send me yours? fare: i have 512K l2 cache and 96MB ram maybe lack of L2 cache explains it I have 96MB RAM, too fare: i got a special deal...buy a floppy drive and get free 64mb ram. other than that it's totally stock. i'm using R5's kernel Linux powerbook.lightsaber.net 2.2.6-15apmac #1 Mon May 31 03:54:09 EDT 1999 ppc unknown * dtm/#tunes has a ppc book, including assembly I got a similar deal, except that it was the cheaper model w/o sec cache fare: how can you be so harshly critical on something like iMac :) and with lame LCD 02:10pm btw mine was $2500, or $3000 plus tax and floppy your uname -a doesn't help me much. Can you point me to the right vmlinux.gz (and associated modules files) ? fare: you know that i run around calling things crap and generally speaking in generous amounts of hyperbolic verbosity -- but why do you just say iMac sucks fare: it's potently powerful, compares favorably or superiorly to everything else on the market, created its own class, looks good, is built on ppc, runs linux, and is affordable to many :) superiorly to what? A half cheaper PC is more powerful! fare: plus is easily administerable, is a good thin client for MacOS X Server's netboot feature (thanks to OpenFirmware) fare: now you're eliminating quality fare: do you own an Alpha? dtm: a same price PC is both more powerful and better quality sr: not yet fare: there is no pc that is more "powerful" than iMac. iMac does exactly what it is intended to do, about as succinctly and affordably as possible. those ways in which peeseas are cheaper, they do not do as much. not to mention they can't do anything as well as a non-peesea because of their crippled architecture. not to mention that they are inherently less accessible and harder to maintain. abi: where is gc? bugger all, i dunno, elgato abi: gc? elgato: bugger all, i dunno grrr abi: garbage collection? i heard garbage collection was meant for that in many simultaneous dimensions, apple's machines make irrelevant/obsolete the illusion that peeseas are worth anything. oh geez and apple is merely an example. find something that does not! i find desktop PCs quite nice to maintain -- I upgrade them bit by bit, and five years later, they are still there. A five year old Mac is a useless piece of junk. i can get you an SGI Indigo^2 starting at $400 complete (minus monitor) with a warranty, so how do you like that? abi: gclist? gclist is at http://lists.tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma/gclist that doesn't help me install linux on my mom's pbg3series :( fare: well you're completely wrong and above all irrational :) actually, using a five year old mac as a log machine is feasible :) thankya kindly hcf :) ElGato: did want that? s/did/did u/ yes me did want that ;) fare: piecemeal upgrades are not easy maintainability. obsoleting the need for upgrade, even in common consumer perception, is. and that's what apple does. sr: then you can use a 15-year old PC as a logon terminal! i would like some general info on gc though mac users do not think that old macs are junk. dtm: but indigo is closed architecture and the source to IRIX is not widely available EG: read the GC FAQ sr: but it runs linux. k Review/Languages.html#GC * dtm/#tunes spanks fare for his insolence hehe dtm! dtm: I know a mac user who buys old Macs, and when I come to his place, it's a hell! fare does not think in terms of non-geek or total cost of ownership in terms of hardware dtm, spare the rod, spoil the fare that was uncalled for fare: well too bad ElGato: ???? I called for it. for the same price, he could have bought a second-hand PC on which to run a linux server for his Mac LAN... hence there it was! fare: old computer museum why the only place i know where that is accepted is #c and #nes2k on efnet ElGato: you're forgetting #asm oh yes #asm too fare: PC's are *crap*. ok? they're not built to have an identity, maintainability, ease of use, sustainability inside their *OWN* architecture, quality, good total cost of ownership, etc if only... alphas were as easily obtainable as PCs... what's #c, #nes2k and #asm doing in this conversation? did I miss something? fare: they're meant for you to buy them, like Ginsu knives minus the quality. n/m dtm: PCs are a world of *competition*, ok? fare: if i want something that's cheap, I'd eliminate TUNES this means that the quality/price ratio is *superior* fare: so is EVERYTHING ELSE fare: your idea of what's proprietary and closed, is obsolete, irrational, and unprovable :) no, Mac is a world of proprietary monopoly fare: you're a nut, buddy :) someday im gonna collect some 6502's and build a computer from scratch 02:20pm i want to buy an R12000 and build an SGI Octane from scratch custom SGI lowrider EG: once I dreamt about a bunch of 6502 with virtual memory coprocessor... * ElGato/#tunes *drewl* fare: i think you need better cache coherency there buddy because the world has evolved since apple had a primary identity being proprietary that ended with this decade. dtm: ever heard of IBM supporting open source? NO! fare: Nintendo did pretty good with memory management hardware in 6502 (nes) and Z80 (gameboy) dtm: they made a timid attempt at allowing clones, and rapidly backed off sr: what? for some reason im not authorized to go on 15 different efnet servers dtm: so any hint on getting Linux to run on that PBG3series? im writing a funny little forth compiler for the nes (for writing emulated games) :D fare: yes but I CAN MAKE A MACINTOSH CLONE your generalizations are just as silly and ignorant as when I pretended to say that all French people smell bad. fare: i have no idea what's wrong with your pb :) ElGato: did you ever consider writing games? (needless to say, both the faq-o-matic and the mailing list proved useless) fare: you should tell all this to the LinuxPPC people i'm sure they'd want to know that you've decided that all their accomplishments are impossible. sr: I did, and have a few drafts (in french) the only games i write will be for nes emulation from 1991 and that's that impossible? ElGato: do you have any games youve written? 8 bits of pure enjoyment what's impossible? no...im just writing the compiler just as a pet project to get some experience in compiler writting before i write the big one (hopefully) ElGato: how can i find out how to write games/programs for the NES (emulator)? um fare: yes a proprietary anticompetative platform has miraculously produced some of the biggest open source developments ever, inside and outside the corporate world, including BOOTHS of powermac and powerpc clones (which run MacOS) at Linuxworld Expo just learn how to rom hack * fare/#Tunes wants a game named refhack, or RHACK, or something like that, in which you impersonate a guy who's trying to crack a computer... i don't know yet but i know a bunch of nes hackers :D fare: i saw a very small embedded 4-cpu ppc board running MacOS last March at linuxworld expo fare: custom built, commercially supported you remind me of those authors who always talk of writing "The Great American Novel" * ElGato/#tunes wants a forth machine sr: who are you talking about :) ElGato aha :) :D i love you all :D dtm: so they accepted clones again? Or maybe those people found a way accross the ROM incompatibility? * dtm/#tunes forgives fare for his silliness and bigotry because he's so fucking smart sr: before i get into anything big i need some practice bigotry!!! maybe OpenFirmware and Darwin means that at last people can make mac clones? ok everyone has a little bit of bigotry in them but fares no bigot! fare: you suffer more than just mild delusion and self-perpetuated misinformation, my friend. there is no "incompatibility". and Apple doesn't have the *ability* to stop cloning! brb fare: can you just try applying logic to the situation? how could apple possibly stop anyone from making a mac clone? dtm: it *did* stop the clones, by refusing to license its ROMs anymore. fare: if you find out, could you tell me where to buy Alpha processors? dtm: and its MacOS used to not run unless you had the Apple ROMs sr: dunno. ask google fare: well you dont need MacOS just to use those machines anyway MacOS is evil software fare: and you can get a MacOS ROM on your own. dtm: if you copy a ROM, that's illegal. In practice, the clones were killed by the ROM non-licensing fare: it makes little difference in practicality, whether apple allows an oem to distribute macos by default fare: peopel can still do it. dtm: did you read alan cox' article "I don't care if space aliens ate my mouse"? see it on opencontent.org fare: i dont remember was it about m68k mac linux dtm: but that means no one can buy a clone but someone who knows how to copy a ROM... [ hi ] tmf! 02:30pm sr: lengua shall own you fare: but i've had enough of this silliness about proprietary architecture when you can get absolutely every piece of documentation straight from Apple's web site, for free, on how to write your own os for their hardware dtm: that reduces the clone market to about zilch dtm: proprietary means that you don't have right to copy sr: you know now my ideas for the language are slowly becoming for like yours fare: Not having any money is the only thing that can prevent someone from buying a Mac clone. it does not (necessarily) mean undocumented as for documentation, read that alan cox article... fare: then dont use proprietary things. their hardware is not proprietary. fare their hardware is *strictly* commodity pieces fare: even ATI is doing linux development now brb er bbl fare: besides, even with no video driver I have full use of my powerbook's video fare: with any given piece of apple hardware i have a MUCH higher likelihood of compatibility, reliability, and ease of use under Linux, than is possible by throwing a dart at a random group of peeseas. not to mention open standards looks like no one wants to quake right now :( it's built on Open Firmware, powerpc, fully documented parts and assembly, etc quake1, 2, or 3? quake 1 dtm: don't take a *random* PC. Take one made of pieces known to work with linux. Go to a linux PC vendor. you'll get a machine more powerful, more reliable, more scaleable, and cheaper, than a Mac. that's competition fare: i was thinking about code factoring EG: yes? fare: you're nuts :) fare: i was thinking about factoring my code in my lexer so there are inlines that act as operations over regular expressions would that be a good idea? dtm: oh, and I *do* have a video driver for my PC laptop, which is much better, faster, more reliable, hassle-free, etc, than my mom's PBG3series. anyway, let's forget about Apple. i like the brightly colored transparent look, though! dtm: you didn't answer my question about the kernel image you use... tmf: I don't. Computers should be discreet, not flashy fare: what do you think about my idea? EG: I'm not sure what it means exactly EG: you wanna partially evaluate the lexer and the parser? 02:40pm you know like union, star, contecation EG: that's a good idea, but maybe doing it with a metaprogram rather than by hand... like lex? for instance. or your own metaprogram, if you don't wanna use lex. or ocamllex ocamllex is a good idea... like make my own lex builder? lex, lex, lex ocamllex, ocamllex, ocamllex fare: i answered your question several times. it's the only one that comes with the R5 installer myownlexer, myownlexer, myownlexer the vmlinux.verystable.gz? dtm+tmf=dtmf there comes several images. :D dtm: you into fones? and none works with the internal IDE :( ElGato: not like that :) uh...ok :D i would still like to write my own lex maker that be cool sure but C is the wrong language for that, I hope you realize it! elgato, a new lexical analyzer or a reg-exp lexer clone? * ElGato/#tunes HUG fare C is the wrong language . HUG? yes yes hug fine i shall write it in scheme and such\ if i decide to write it elgato, what particular additional feature did you want? probably nothing...although lex doesn't have any features for regular expressions 02:50pm you just name the tokens ? you define regular expressions and call then stuff call then stuff? give them names keywords? keywords are the only type of filenames in brix lex definitely has regular expressions. it does? isn't that good? what's an efnet server? irc.concentric.net irc.primenet.com i guess lex is good enough does lex produce nfa's or dfa's? no, use ocamllex instead it directly produces dfa-based finite-state machines elgato, yes it eventually gives you an dfa good sexp? sexp is, like, Symbolic EXPression sexp is also just SEX renamed no to scare people okay, fare. what's so great about ocaml anyway? EG: what's so great about C anyway? i asked first :D but we're LIFO :) LIFO? LIFO is Last In, First Out damn those stacks! fine LIFO is also the way stack data structures work okay, fare. ok the only reason i want c is because anyone can compile it easily but oh well well, anyone can easily compile ocaml (well, I heard that the ocaml rpm would screw SuSE) is there ocaml on most linux and other unix distributions? when it isn't, you can compile it out of the box [ gottogo ] i'd rather it be compiled inside something like tar zxvf ocaml.tgz ; cd ocaml ; ./configure ; make world ; make install hmmm why should i pico ocaml over scheme? pick maybe fare: u know anything about java? I'd say yes, unless you want reflection liar: enough to not want to use it unless forced i learned java and then quickly forgot 03:00pm fare: i know you probably get this a lot but when will there be any coding done on the HLL? EG: when you do it do u know if there is a java2 compiler for linux yet? im not really part of the hll subproject although i sure have learned a lot lately java2 is suppose to be really really good so im gonna learn it liar: anything is supposed really really good, if you listen to marketeers this was from news articles fare: is there a schemelex? no. But there are many similar tools. One is in tom lord's page or should be 03:10pm but not a lex builder? lex builder? lexical analyzer generator pardon my incompetence something like lex? I'm sure there are several written in scheme none standard not in scheme...for scheme lex stuff that dump scheme code? yes, there are several :D i got the itch to write my own 03:20pm maybe one in slib, one in bigloo, one in tom lord's thing, one around here, one around there yes well it would be interesting hey water hi water D: hi water, bye water 03:30pm bywater? highwater Vous êtes une bonne dame et je serais honoré pour mettre mon pénis dans votre bout. :D hahahahha well sr: do you still have roger wilco ? yes 209.68.229.171 connect ok sr: which roger wilco? dans votre quoi? sr: can you hear me? yes it's a walkie talkie app, fare fare: im getting noughty with bable fish something's wrong -- ladies don't have tips naughty er You are a fine lady and I would be honored to put my penis in your butt. * fare/#Tunes liked space quest IV (or was that III ?) Le prix a eu une liaison amoureuse avec son ordinateur. prix? "fare" !!! hey all high water again! 03:40pm put your boots on, guys! Si vous n'êtes pas bon je mettrai mon pénis dans votre bout aussi. Vous améliorez non laissé le sope pour glisser. *** water has quit IRC (Connection reset by queer) ??? L'eau est une expression du tao. water: enlighten me as to what taoism is about lag sorry grrr! lynx+squid sux! taoism _is about effortless action Avant que l'urinate de I sur vous aiment des urinates de pisses de hcf sur les personnes âgées Les hommes courageux meurent une fois, alors que les lâches meurent beaucoup de fois avant leur dépassement. like how water flows downhill without having to consider where to go EG talks about urinating, and you talk about water flowing down... Before the urinate of I on you like urinates of pisses of hcf on the people old <--- babel fish translation your bable fish sucks! what's news, all? Urinate I sur vous poissons bable Le Fare trahit-il son héritage avec l'élégance parisienne? ??? !!!\ Pouvez vous vous brûler dans l'enfer Américain modifié. lots o lag >>> smkl [sami@CMLXXXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] requested PING 935532262 946944 from #tunes ? >>> sr [depag@phila-dialup498.nni.com] requested PING 935535008 from #tunes sr: did you hear that?! [water PING reply]: 49 secs ya brb sr: did you hear ball and chain? no how about that? are your speakers even on? 03:50pm whoa i was afk for a while say it again i heard "hello" "yes" whoa Roger Wilco kicked me off 15 minutes log on again :D hehe :))) i suck at singing what the hell is this? cool music what is it? doll- foo fighters just get a realaudio server how bout u guys join #rogerwilco <`shift> Hello :):) hello :):) :D <`shift> so.. whats happening here then :):) sr: how do i set up a real audio server? <`shift> anyone here use 'Sonique' ? what is it? <`shift> a media player for Windows <`shift> no? <`shift> www.sonique.com <-- 'tis better than winamp :):) not many of us uses windows <`shift> BEOS version coming soon <`shift> after that the LINUX version 04:00pm <`shift> what you lot into here.. i new to this server <`shift> :):) OS development Language development elgato: www.real.com 04:10pm fare: i read that article by Alan Cox, and he's very extremely irrationally biased. that article was viewed by me and by friends of mine who have NOTHING to do with apple at all (no particular interest of any kind) as irrational. technically ok but emotionally unreasonably biased. I actually read it in the bathroom while i was working at VA Research. VA Research? they make linux machines i'm reading that article again right now and am appalled at the *totally* immature, unprofessional, unreasonably emotionally biased attitude of the writer. it's something i might have written years ago and probably would have deleted right away once i read it five minutes later. :) the most impressive thing is that every single last one of the irrational conclusions he comes to about Apple or Macintosh, can be replaced to describe a totally open system such as *gasp* Linux. it's a display of false bravado. 04:40pm the conclusions are derived from logical fallacy. minute technical, social, or ethical mistakes lead to total misdirection, and the blatant underlying hostility doesn't help either :) i showed it to my friends at VA just to show how embarrassing it was. and so i totally understand why you showed it to me, fare : ) >:-} cool! a film adaptation of 'ender's game' i hope that they don't screw it up 04:50pm HI FRIENDS lo enemies D: i'd like to also point out the fact that for a period of a few years in Apple's history, their entire reputation was fucked up. since John Sculley joined, and until Jobs returned, their public interface ranged from disarray to complete disaster. and it's worthless to hold that against them still, even though a lot of things were permanently obfuscated brb the reason why it was so hard to port anything to the Mac 68k was because of the proprietary nature of the CEO and board of directors at the time (john sculley) and the reason why it's not easy now, is because it was not easy then. they weren't dripping with detailed external documentation then. not even Motorola still has full docs for related chipsets such as 68881 and friends who complains about the Atari or Amiga?????!?! neither had the direct and broad impact on the human civilization that Apple's machines have had. which is another entirely different unfortunate issue. people cant FIND docs, in or out of Apple, that describe the DMA and memory controllers of the Mac IIfx and some Quadras. not even the apple engineers cared much as long as the software group booted their own OS on it. but those docs that do exist are completely public now, and have been for years. i was on the mac 68k port team. i bought a IIsi as my main machine just so i could suffer through that. i spent hours on the phone for them. and Alan was not there. Rob Pelkey and friends were. Alan was *not* on the developer mailing list. not during the time i was. IM BACK FRIENDS GREETINGS MISTER CAT is Alan Cox a Linux developer? WE WELCOME YOU BACK WITH RAISED TAILS sr: yes he's second in command, to Linus. meow i might add that Linus is just as irrational but by contrast is **HONEST** about it. cause linus get cox from him :D whuh? hehehe...lame joke looks like Cox wants a piece of the Apple pie i got chur pie right here :} that Fare had *better* read all that shit i just typed!!! or i'm gonna kick his buttocks one day. he purports to hate them and irrationaly does so, yet he secretly idolizes them sr: i think so. i agree also sr: in a strange and quirky way, apple has a completely unique identity and culture. sr: right or wrong, their stuff fits in and stands out. sr: it changes the shape, pushes the edge, etc CHALLENGES "THE MAN" mows the lawn shaves the dogs waxes the chickens cooks the liver *ahem* steve jobs would be a cool boss when isn't having mood swings mmm liver 05:00pm ElGato: yer damn right coz otherwise you'd wish you'd never met him. wozniak is cool hopefully, my idea for starting a company will do better than they have The Woz. water: hire me :D water go right ahead -- few companies' successes and mistakes have been as widely and accurately documented as those from Apple. * water/#tunes idolized those two when much younger. water: apple is a real model to learn from, mostly on how to not do things water me too water: i'll work for $2 and hour water: i know now better than to idolize anyone. ElGato: where do you live water: what's the idea behind your company? san diego, CA i remember drooling over a NeXT box ElGato: i'm in Sunnyvale water: heheh "technology for the mind" hmmm....central valley? ElGato: yessir cool ElGato: come up and visit.. i know you HAVE to be cool if you hang out in #tunes! ;) i've been up to fresno a few times but that's it dtm: how old are you? ElGato: do you have any friends/family in the bay area ElGato: 22 yrs my aunt is in reno a company that would make "toys" and systems that would revolutionize their fields by applying the kinds of concepts i have in mind with my "arrow" idea closest :D water: OSes too? :P water: what is 'arrow'? that was the name of some software. ElGato: where's reno? dtm: i'll come up if you buy me beer ElGato: negatory nevada close to CA * water/#tunes envisions the day when he can market a six-dimensional puzzle to kids that they would love. ElGato: no mind-altering or blatantly toxic substances abi: arrow? arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/ water: bad ass i'll take a hundred bucks' worht! abi: wow abi's really smart oh...well why else would i want to visit with someone over 21 j/k ;) ElGato: yo'ure a fool! how old are you 14 * dtm/#tunes pokes elgato in the head :D i'm trying to get some really good academic papers written to detail the theory now i love you too well then how would you get here? sailing? i won't ElGato: have you contributed to tunes other than your lively conversation well if you consider retro part of tunes then yes what would you want with beer? to drink it? ElGato: what is retro a pet os of a tunes developer forth based os pretty text colors ;) be back in an hour... have to pick my roommate up from work ElGato: u havent helped out with retro i tried but paul messed it up by putting so many errors in the code i can't test my code hmm so since i looked at the retro cvs i also helped out with it? liar: have you helped the TUNES project in any way? um i am helping remind me to have pyro add my name to the credits i just haven't tested my code :D sr: i guess my presence here is helping the tunes project too :) liar: you are mean :( liar you're like me but not clueless =) liar: u sure help a lot by lying to newcomers about tunes <_QZ> Tunes: the musical OS! the motto: Just sing it! * dtm/#tunes snorts tunes is a musical os hehe oh i get it. musical. hcf: so when i said tunes does not exist and will probably never exist, that was all just a lie? :) liar should be kix0red we should keeeel heeem. liar: blasphemer! fare himself said he wants tunes to catalog his mp3's probability imho is an ancient and stupid lie. that was even on the web page liar: neat liar: so get to work! liar: keep your BRiX crap out of here far'es mp3's cant wait fare has a 3 gig mp3 archive, and according to some, an equally large porn archive oh boy liar == qz??! yes HI THERE QZ hehe i almost dinnet recognize ya! dtm: :) 05:10pm or pr0nfix which is having an having it on both sides liar: i forgot where it was that you live. i'm trying to rebuild historical context here :} pop-11 will give you a woody ok. i live in corvo flores that porn freak! where is corvo flores but we know it's really salt lake city ElGato: do not underestimate how many kinds of a freak, is fare. off the coast of portugal :( im just joking fahree is my daddy btw :D does anyone here know anything about AmigaOS? sr: i don't know ElGato: he's more of a freak that you can POSSIBLY IMAGINE sr: i do ebonicslly speaking sr: I LIKE IT s/that/than dtm: can you point me to some explanations/details i want to find out about this OS and how it manages to be kernel-less or semi kernel-less sr: yahoo.com !! http://www.amiga.com :} dtm: are amigas still alive? afaik it's mostly because it's so heavily componentized sr: they'll never die sr: yes, goto www.amiga.com amigaOS has such a strong component model that it can dynamically insert/remove kernel code from ROMs that are autodetected onboard a peripheral. saving ram. and so forth. remove code from ROM? wow! I *just* might also add that Macs have been able to autodetect and boot ROM driver code on peripherals since just about FOREVER fare: hi dad :D * dtm/#tunes punishes fare for his insolence hi son. time for your spanking how do you do that? It points a gun at the operator, and threatens to shoot if he doesn't plugin a different ROM? fare: get back to writing your nonexistant but expedient OS! fare: it can remove KERNEL CODE (i.e. code that is IN KERNEL SPACE) and which has been inserted FROM A ROM shall i use the term "allocate/unallocate"? dtm: yes please do liar: thank you; i will. dtm: in what is that ROM code written? If it's x86 or m68k assembly, then too bad. l' Fare est un ignorant et smelly un Français. !!! fare: unknown sir don't talk about my daddy that way! fare: i would imagine that Amigans had a heavy assembly trend.. sr: that's what i was thinking. dip him in the brine!!! determinate fare: and i would have to guess that an Amiga-based peripheral's driver was NOT written in x86 anything. sr: yes thank you datum sr: digital terrain modeler what kind of processor does the amiga use? sr: 68k isn't that 32-bit CISC? sr: AHA!!! but it's not dependant upon an MMU, or 32-bit external addressing -- it runs on 68000. wow that amiga spinning globe logo looks really cool the amiga doesn't exist anymore sr: it's 32bit internally, for sure. * dtm/#tunes beats fare with the largest, hardest, heaviest, closest thing he can find soy El Gato the 68000 is 16-bit internally soy tu padre but it has 32-bit registers; fare: yes it does and its 68008 variant has a 8-bit data bus go figure! fare: the new amiga will have linux as the core of its os too :) abi: ElGato is also the love child of fare and liar okay, sr. fare: back to the OS design bench with you! get to work! sr: i dont doubt that liar isn't my daddy abi, who is ElGato? !!! it has been said that ElGato is annoyed when you ask that or the love child of fare and liar abi: forger ElGato abi: forget ElGato ElGato: I forgot elgato @RL@!K!L@ * liar/#tunes would kill himself if elgato was his son 05:20pm ElGato is annoyed when you ask that ElGato? you are annoyed when you ask that liar: you probably don't have the sperm to produce me Linux learnt computing on his 68008-equipped Sinclair XL, IIRC s/ux/us/ hah hahhehahehehehkjlsjf dtm: ok dtm: where to begin from? does the production of elgato require superhuman sperm? fare: you start with repenting for being difficult! sr: retarded sperm fare: you're supposed to be incredibly bright, not inconvenient ;) no fare: you're an inspiration to all of us! it take superhuman sperm sr is right * fare/#Tunes flushes the discussion let's go back to tunes /clear and cat eggs for vice versa ElGato: but if u were made from retarded sperm u would think u were superhuman and u would be running around with yer superman cape on :) fare: just as long as you read the text above that i worked hard to educate you on fare: that was a benevolant act from me. sr IIIIID -- - - (: liar III(: ElGato: do u think u could have been made from retarded sperm and yer just in denial? IIIID (: I read the part of it that was still on my screen when I came back III(: IID fare: then read the rest actually i lied you see a forth machine must be fertalized by cat sperm strange process it is ElGato: i hear ya were u made from cat sperm or do u consume cat sperm? no no no made from cat sperm silly ;) are u in denial? that is a loaded question one in which i will not answer :) liar: do your parents know your gay? i will assume that yer in denial then yes they do glad to see your coming out and being proud of it :D ok, 1) what language to start from 2) what kind of features to add first? asm write the damn interpreter in asm and bootstrap it into a compiler!!! 05:30pm * fare/#Tunes hits EG iepos! fare! * ElGato/#tunes cry * fare/#Tunes is talking about HLL, not LLL :\ Perly!!! fare, are you still planning to implement your lambdaND system? from #c? elgato, hi, what's this about yeah :D hey guys here's one of those freaks...er...guys from #c on efnet ;) welcome to the Musical Lounge called #tunes hahaha herm elgato, i mean, what's this channel about? :) the tunes os/language oh Perly: go away. you are even more lame than HS smkl: uhm, why is that? hey-lo all iepos: dunno. Why not? wow this channel is getting larger every second D: iepos: actually, as I concluded in lambdaND, I need communication, too lame?!?! HS isn't lame he's my friend ;) fare: what kind of communication do you need? * dtm/#tunes snuggles up to fare * dtm/#tunes bats his eyes up at fare fare: yeah, lambdaND is not really a language i suppose... just a computing model... dtm: inter-agent communication Hmmm. iepos: no; only the pure subset thereof Oh. In the software. smkl? i heard smkl was a spam bot who got stranded in #tunes dtm? fare: well, applicative languages seem like good languages to me... perly: check out tunes.org and idle here for a while iepos: sure. See CL, Scheme, SML, OCAML ElGato: halt! catch fire! * Downix/#tunes is an odd person, only codes in C fare: you mean that you need a communication model in software? fare is that the comm you were referring ot s/ot/to !!! hcf!!! dtm: yes, I want concurrency from within the HLL ElGato? ElGato is annoyed when you ask that or the love child of fare fare: oh ok * ElGato/#tunes HUG hcf dtm: did you read my glossary entry on uK? ElGato: oic, nm >>> Perly [C@perly.xnet.com] requested unknown ctcp VERSIOIN from smkl gee now smkl be nice :) hcf reminds of a 12 year old girl 05:40pm i didn't say that fare: hmmm... scheme doesn't really seem applicative to me (although i'll admit, i've never used it, only looked at it a bit)... it has the common problem of confusing procedures that yield things with the things themselves, right? hmm... i guess that doe' *ElGato imagines hcf as being a 12 year old asian girl iepos: the confusion is only in your mind fare: negative :( iepos: it's as applicative as ML (and anterior to it) dtm: read on! fare: i just might! dtm: did you read the article/ll99/ thing? * dtm/#tunes computes his y2k work * Downix/#tunes laughs fare: not yet! fare: all right... some day i've going to have to try out ML, i guess. fare: i'm goig to refresh myself on the entire site soon! iepos: what applicative language do you know, if it's neither LISP, neither ML? dtm is a mystical entity who somehow knows fare and entered this channel in mysterious circumstances dtm: btw, I have no driver's license! fare: you only need to hold onto a programming language for a short time til you create the HLL fare: oh, i don't know an applicative programming language... but it would seem like an applicative language would be good. just settle on scheme or ml a while ago i was flipping through /users on bespin and i discovered dtm he didn't stumble in here sr: i've been into TUNES since about 1994 or 1995 hehe but my explanation sounds better sr: over a period of several years since then i'd been writing to fare every 6 or 12 months to ask him what i could do to help and only got extremely latent and nearly totaly useless examples sr: yes it does. i like it iepos: oh :) * dtm/#tunes stumbles over elGato meow! where the hell is Dem? i think Dem is logged in more than once; writing to ttya0 wtf?! hmm fare: anyhow... i was thinking... one good feature of a language is that it fixes an interpretation to symbols, without regard to context. this seems like a must for a language suitable for logic. how does abi know so much * ElGato/#tunes points a gun to fare's head it's scheme or ml fare be careful with that thing elG take your pick fare: i mean automated logic... hehe dtm: she learns from channel chatter, 'x is y' things it? so, how is Tunes going? fare: this requirement would rule out languages with pronouns or words like "now"... abi: forget dem hcf: I forgot dem red tape rivals recycling bibles ElGato: I say recycle them into something useful, like porn magazines. 8) :D fare: although it would still be fine if the language provided a "now" procedure that resulted in the time that it was executed. iepos: you want the language to have pure semantics like forth :D iepos: unhappily, this isn't always possible fare: from where do you expect to buy an alpha? intentionality is part of life, it's part of computing fare: definitely, if it's going to be suitable for automated logic... syntactic sugar is fine though of course, for users. sr: I had addresses, long ago. At worst, at Compaq. synacttic sugar bothers me sr, alphas? i have a multia i got off ebay. still haven't got it to boot linux though :-) minimal syntax maximal semantics sr, fare: i really want to buy one, and if you can tell me where i'd really appreciate it multias sell for around $100 on ebay these days. In France, acticiel.com has Alphas I'd rather buy a MIPS box myself syntax makes the programmer feel good but I'm biased 05:50pm semantics makes the programmer express himself (a multia is a 166Mhz aplha with a network card/pcmcia slots, keyboard, mouse, ..., typically with 64MB of ram, hard drive not recommended, external if you do) one of the head maintainers of Stampede Linux wants to sell his multia gabe@stampede.org iepos: I don't like Alpha's terribly much I'm afraid. i want to buy an alpha chip OEM i like 6502's yeah baby ElGato: Hey, the 6502's were nice, but I think the 68000's toast them i haven't read up on 68000's fare: you said "pure semantics" was not always possible. how so? dudex0rs forth can anyone tell me why netscape asks if i want to save any html file that is try to view from my drive? s/is/i/ http://www.digital.com/alphaoem/developers.htm ElGato: Do it, they're fantastic project CPU's. 2-stage pipeline, ASM that makes sence, and a bus that's easy as pi to develop http://www.microway.com/ has alpha machines i want the chip from the factory :P the 6803 beats the 6502 alpha OEM lists motherboard products what do you mean by project cpu's? but they don't list prices fare: Agreed. but the 68030 beats the 6803 Downix: :) sr: I wouldn't Alpha OEM, it's EXPENSIVE! back greetings, water! agua :)! downix: how so? isn't getting them from the factory cheaper? liar: it's because of your mime types sr: Not by much. You can get equivelent performance from SPARC and MIPS CPU's for much lower cost but getting it used is cheaper still. liar: those are set from the users' perspectives, in ~/.mailcap and ~/.mime.types or in some system wide file, and you might have some that are overriding the built-in static binary types as well iepos: see the way Haskell does I/O liar: go check in your preferences, under 'navigator' iepos: Not by much. Unlike SPARC and MIPS series, noone continues the older, cheaper Alpha series iepos: I/O and communication are the antithesis to pure computation what do you ladies think of WD65C816 Downix: how much would you sell me an Alpha for? iepos: they embody intentionality as opposed to extensionality, whereas pure computation is extensionality sr: a million dollars fare: the way haskell does i/o is the way i'd like to do i/o, maybe. a fuller model of time would be nice though, so one could do multiple things at once with arbitrary synchronization constraints. so you wouldn't sell one? * fare/#Tunes liked the ARM design. Too bad no one pushes it. fare: Agreed, ARM is very well done. iepos: to do concurrent computation like that is impossible sr: I would, for a million dollars fare: impossible? I exaggerate; but you'd end up with something very ugly 06:00pm in the end, you'd pass around whole environments and do clumsily what impure languages do easily fare: the problem is that ARM entered into a very compeditive field w/o a huge advantage. It's one level, StrongARM is firmly controlled by Intel, not good prospects for ARM in the end. fare: hmmm... the key to me seems to be to separate the logic/system (or reduction system) from the i/o... i don't suggest passing around environments... (...) Downix: yeah. Too bad. * fare/#Tunes would like the F-CPU to be ARM-compatible! fare: I wouldn't. WOuld be too limiting plus that would be a *great* market for it! why limiting? fare: the system should could keep a general knowledge base which it does logic on, and also a set of pending instructions. dtm: well it was saying 'type application/x-httpd-php3' but i removed that from the helpers list and even restarted netscape but it still asks to save as that type fare: A great market, but if it was an "ARM clone" it would be shunned by the other ARM users. They are proud of their chip, and don't want people copying them. fare: forget 'should' it's a doable first target, and compatibility with that well-spread design would attract attention and mindshare... liar: that wasn't the right type if you're just talking about plain html. * dtm/#tunes has a 20MHz StrongARM in his Newton MP100 it would force the other ARM users to open more, and create exactly what we want! fare: Not true. I would note that other chip manufacturers have tried this before dtm: it is plain html but the netscape save as dialog says that type 20MHz StrongARM? Ain't that a contradiction in terms? liar: right fare: Let me take keen note of the Z80, which has never been a popular mainstream CPU Z80 was *very* popular! and still is fare: the system i am thinking of will probably not do most of its work through reduction, but rather through i/o ("procedures"). but these procedures will be described in an applicative language... * liar/#tunes has a 100mhz dragonball in his pilot fare: Not it's not popular, tell me a time when Z80's were selling 800,000 units a year? wb agua fare: I can name other CPU's that do iepos: we need to model concurrent computations, such as naturally happen when lots of people connect asynchronously to the system! i found an Alpha 533MHz system for $600 on ebay Downix: what do you suggest, then? that the F-CPU be an incompatible chip with an unknown design that cannot be used in any way by any one? fare: that sounds like a good idea. fare: will the F-CPU ever exist? :P I like it. Let's take votes! fare: hmm... i wasn't clear. i'm thinking of tossing the lambda-reduction-as-computation approach generally (it may be of some interest on a low level)... fare: sounds smart to me. because that way people will learn the F-CPU, and not ARM, MIPS, or some other architecture. F-CPU was to be better than these other ones. If we copy one too closely, we won't manage to be better iepos: what would you retain, then? fare: i'd retain an applicative language and the haskellish way of modelling procedures... Downix: maybe start from one of those proven research designs? fare: well, haskell is not really applicative ... but ... fare: We have. Downix: those proven with formal methods... fare: Our design borrows elements from Power and MIPS architecture i dont think it's all that winning of an idea to want to imitate other architectures except in concept. iepos: Haskell is the antithesis to applicative programming i'm leaning toward downix's standpoit here fare: And avoids pitfalls both fell into Downix: what about the bus? Downix: what are some pitfalls of ppc and mips? fare: The bus is still up in the air. Downix: was the design chosen already? i hope the bus should be independant. not something overly simple or legacy like pci dtm: Power started off too heavy in the overhead. Hard to reduce the cost to a point that's good for embedded w/o sacrificing performance. can it be extended with type tags on register and/or memory, as in LISP machines? fare: Semi. We have only one proposed, and noone is complaining rather, not *dependant* on something like pci. dtm: Agreed will it be compatible with existing chipsets? or will a free chipset have to be designed, too? See, guys? I'm smart, just like Downix. fare: Yup. and we're working on making it compatable with existing chipsets. Downix likes non-bus-dependancy too! 06:10pm is there any sane way to abstract all these things away, so that you could implement a tunes architecture however you want? such as in ibm's new open ppc design, or on an intel or an apple? or a c64? fare: i like the way that haskell separates lambda-abstraction from procedure-calls (unlike C and ...)... that's really all i meant to say about haskell i guess :-) how long the pipeline? to keep it full, will you use software management of stalls? speculation? multithreading? dtm: always possible. Hell, someone ported BSD to a Sega Dreamcast downix: what do you mean by a project cpu? * dtm/#tunes speculates across multiple threads, about fare's query Downix: indeed but they might have been seemingly highly irrational to start with :) fare: the pipeline length is to be between 3 and 5 stages. Any more and latency can kill the system. Downix: i'm just wondering if it's possible to make it easy ElGato: I'm part of the F-CPU project. ... Downix: have MISC proposals be considered? ElGato: yeah, so dont mess with Downix! dtm: I don't see why not. could you point me out to a url or something > fare: Yes and rejected. MISC has never had performance. ? ElGato: http://f-cpu.tux.org * dtm/#tunes points elgato to a url http://slashdot.org danku schon http://www.y2k.gov iepos: sure. It's nice to be able to isolate pure parts of programs. But I think it's wrong-headed to not support impure programming directly fare: i've been working on my kludgy interpretive system that i promised awhile ago. it's not really interesting at this point though... iepos: usual self-quote: Ob(Pure Programming Languages): implicit state _is_ modularity. If we want to be really radical, and eliminate implicit state, then we should eliminate it at the meta-level, too, and remove named variables, leaving us only combinat downix: so you're a l33t hardware hax0r? ;) ors. fare: And to get MISC to perform would require far more hardware than would be profitable. fare: not sure what you mean by "impure" programming. you mean procedures with side-effects? in the system i am thinking of, there will be almost no procedures _without_ side-effects, since if you didn't have a side-effect, you probably didn't need a proce fare: ... procdure at all. Downix: never had performance? It looks quite performant, to me. ElGato: semi, kinda-sorta. I am mostly a researcher, but I can apply some of it fare: Performance comes at a cost, always. what are you actually making? Downix: remember that you can pack many instructions in a memory cycle. Downix: even in a static memory cycle! fare: and ... the key is that one should be able to refer to things directly, without needing a procedure. iepos: uh? iepos: not sure what you mean, there. fare: hmm.... well... (....) impure == has side effects, communication with other agents, etc wait wait are you actually making a processor or something? i'd imagine that would be expensive ;) fare: You can do that w/ other architectures. ElGato: it is, which is why all of it is theoretical for now. fare: in many programming languages, to refer to, say, a list of prime numbers, you would write a procedure that generates them, but in a good system, you would not need a procedure. lengua == pure fare: MISC has no serious advantages. On the same die size, you can get better performance from both CISC and RISC Downix: or you could put several MISC processors in parallel fare: Again, nothing that cannot be done cheaper with other CPU's Downix: have measurements been done to back this assertion? fare: Measurements were done in 78, when MISC was first tried out. downix: do you work with a silicon compiler or something? 06:20pm Downix: is the Z80 a good processor? Downix: at that time, the memory/CPU speed discrepancy was not what it is today fare: oh, your self-quote i missed... actually it does seem interesting to eliminate variables at the meta-level, although remember the language i'm looking for is for computers... less-pure extensions for people might be interesting still. sr: VEry good for it's time. i would like to get a good project CPU i want to make a gameboy-like device fare: No, but the CPU's today perform even better. Perhaps MISC today could work, but it's a dead architecture for the most part for a reason. It's EXPENSIVE! ElGato: Semi, I have a start-up company sr: I'd go 68000, much better documentation i bet i could get a 6502 for $2 where can i buy some 68000s? D: what makes it so expensive? I'm interested... how much are 68000's? fare: does that make sense to you, what i said before? that one should be able to refer to the set of prime numbers using a set abstraction of some other ordinary construct, without needing a procedure... ? sr: Any electronics catelog ElGato: $7 is that for a 68000? fare: The size of the routing units. ElGato: Right. !!! i want one fare: plus other things in the ALU iepos: I'm not sure what's wrong about using procedures. ElGato: They're 8Mhz CPU's, first consumer model w/ a full pipeline tho fare: procedures are still necessary, if you want the computer to actually output/input something of course. and still one could describe procedures using ordinary language constructs. the act of describing a procedure would not be the same as executing it are there any sites online that sell 68000s? i gotta learn electronics though sr: Motorola made them D: routing? D: the ALU might be very simple fare: procedures could be useful in other cases as well, besides i/o, also. but itvery unnatural to e to have to use a procedure to refer to the set of prime numbers or such sr: i'll be steve jobs and you be steve wazniak sr: we'll have a startup ;) D: or when you say "procedure", do you miply something about side effects? downix: would it be possible to make a small terminal device like a gameboy and a unix prompt with a limited budget? sorry, keep bumping enter key. :-) fare: I don't really know how a MISC CPU works, but as my college professor pointed out, "the cores of MISC CPU's are always much larger due to the increased transistors to handle the tasks a MISC device needs" s/D:/iepos:/ sr: Easily. i want something like a graphing calculator with more capabilities fare: I'm not positive, as I said. hahaha iepos sr: 68000 may be a good choice for you then. BSD runs on it Downix: has this professor studied the ShBoom or the F21? now i can be a l33t hardware hax0r like downix :D Downix: why are there increased transistors? sr: get a pda with squeak loaded :) fare: when i say "procedure", i mean an instruction about something to do... i like to compare procedures in my system to commands in ordinary languages like english rather than in programming language fare: I don't know, I'd have to see how a MISC CPU works first. i want a forth machine because of barrel shift registers all the way in the implicit register stacks? laggg..... are there any cheap forth cpu's out there? fare: I've studied the F21, found it a curiosity. where can i get information on making these devices? where are there stores online that sell the necessary equipment? sr: i used my Newton as a graphing calculator :) sr: JDR microdevices does, and sells books with electronics projects on it fare: I also found it a relic from the era of VAX, which was a similar concept I'd note jdr, any URL for that? fare: "go home", "eat cheese", "spit out a bunch of characters on the screen"... those would be procedures in the sense that i use... iepos: whether a procedure is expressed with lambdas or jsut combinators doesn't change the overall semantics of the system. fare: oh, a lambda extension probably wouldn't be too bad, although i don't see the need. fare: but a procedure would need to be expressed with more than just comibnators or lambdas.. some other constructs would be necessary also, of course. iepos: I still don't see what you object exactly to what. 06:30pm Downix: the VAX was not quite a MISC. A prototypical CISC, maybe. fare: And I'd note that you don't see VAX's around much anymore, do you? fare: i'm not exactly sure either.. i don't like the confusion in many systems that prevents one from talking about procedures without actually having the system execute them. that is the biggest thing, i suppose. fare: no, VAX was a similar idea to MISC, just more rigid. A CPU designed around programming language optimization, not for performance. can someone define 'MISC'? expand the acronym please fare: haskell doesn't have that problem... but C does. and i think scheme does too. not sure. Modular Instruction System Command HA! we *finally* scared off ElGato! perhaps once and for all! Downix: is there any simple way to quantify the difference it has over cisc and risc he'll be back Downix: i'm assuming that is the context in which is it derived did i assume wrongly water: doh!()@#% * dtm/#tunes wonders what you guys will say after dtm is gone D: MISC is not designed for programming language optimization dtm: Ok, with MISC, despite all other claims, the end result is trying to save memory on the system by allowing the CPU to run code more efficiently fare: The original concept behind MISC was actually just for that. D: it's designed for minimal and fast hardware, and pushing complexity into software. fare: That's another way to phrase it, but in the end, the same thing focusing on the software over the hardware fare: that sounds like a good concept -- does it work fare: consistantly dtm: It does, but the problem comes when performance on a MISC or similar ideas such as VAX does not come near what a RISC system can do w/ the same memory latency and cache Downix: so misc tends to have a lower performance ceiling? is it a ceiling or is it a curve or is it just something hard to define dtm: it's hard to define, but there is a degredation in performance over RISC. But it has clear advantages over standard RISC designs. most notibly in the area of memory useage Downix: are the advantages in that it's more practical, or easy to design, or cheaper, or what MISC is idea for memory-intensive apps like 3D work oh really dtm: However, it is expensive to produce in any MISC model made to date Downix: but if it's ideal for intensive apps, then how does its performance crunch come into play? www.jdr.com Downix: what? you're saying that MISC is expensive to design so far? dtm: Because during the 98% of all CPU time other than memory peak periods, MISC has bad latency dtm: that's one problem. MISC designs usually end up with lower performance as a result, because noone can afford to produce the high-performance potential of the chips. 06:40pm Downix: oh why cant they afford it since F-CPU was for affordable performance, MISC was rejected. Along with such ideas as TTL, 5-level cache, etc Downix: it's interesting that i've never heard of any of this. why was TTL rejected? Downix: what about RISC for F-CPU dtm: Because they could get buy more RISC chips than a single MISC chip w/ the same performance ahem. TTL opposes to gate-level logic, doesn't it? fare: Again, cost. TTL may have the key in speed, but it's expensive to synth dtm: F-CPU is RISC why expensive to synth? That depends on the software. I know a guy who programmed a LISP system to do chip design from TTL to block design. it could go even down to mask design and you'd program it all in LISP, with the right level of abstraction at every step of your design. fare: We are looking at TTL for later on, but for the initial design, we're sticking to slower, cheaper tech. so much for rejecting MISC on alledged slowness also there's the other problem we had: Noone knows how the heck a MISC design actually works we are all CISC and RISC people one word of advice I got a long time ago: Do what you know! hehehhe Downix: but properly abstract it! Downix: so as to not obfuscate any given implementation! Downix: otherwise that would kind of reduce the purpose of Tunes eh? dtm: Right. We've grouped all of our knowledge into this. From the PPC folks, to the 68k guys to us MIPS-a-holics and even the ARM gent's had their turn i feel like trying out Quake 3 test tonight. i wonder if there's a new MacOS client dtm: Right Downix: in what group is this that you all collaborated? i dont remember if i've heard of f-cpu but it's starting to ring a bell from maybe years ago. the 'freedom architecture'? was that the one that's supposed to cost something like $20 perhaps i'm confabulating. on the value. Downix: seing how you can do a 21-bit MISC CPU in 10000 transistors, I'd guess a 32-bit CPU would be less than 20000 transistors dtm: kinda, but the name is right. fare: i can do one in five. fare: Nope, to jump from 21-bit to 32-bit would go to 28000 * dtm/#tunes etches a drawing of five transistors into fare's forehead fare: But we're doing 64-bit, square that there! now you're moving faster. Downix: why square? * dtm/#tunes antagonizes fare relentlessly and meaninglessly Most of the logic will scale linearly! fare: Not so I've found. In the end, squaring is usually safer to deal with, and 90% of the time you're damned close fare: Remember, double the bits, double the transistors to control those bits, double the security for the system, double everything. you end up squaring the whole problem I disagree. a badass adder or router would be like quadratic in bit size, not exponential! double what security? fare: Yes, but I always go higher for safety's sake Downix: no, you don't end up squaring the whole system 06:50pm fare: your pipeline stall fare: But you don't end up doubling it either. It's in the middle Downix: oh, yeah; you may have pipeline problems; but if the CPU is so much faster than even the static RAM, that'll be a noise in the memory access... fare: here's an example, it is diffcult to make a 32-bit CPU for under 100,000 transistors difficult, not impossible ARM did in in 70000 transistors, didn't they? fare: they did, yes. And the 68000 did it in 68000 transistors (and it's not even MISC) fare: No, it's not. well, the 68000 is a microcoded 16-bit core. fare: No, it's a microcoded 32-bit core w/ 16-bit bus and there was a 32-bit bus design version of it as well depends on what you call the size of the core fare: In the 68000 I consider everything inside of the pins the core the ALU was 16-bit, wasn't it? fare: nope, 32-bit. The 68000 was the 32-bit version of the 16-bit 6800 6800 was 8-bit!!! aren't you confusing with 68020??? fare, 68000 has 32bit internal addressing the 68000 had 16-bit ALU, so that 16-bit add would take 3 cycles, and 32-bit adds would take 7 cycles (or so) fare: I got the 68000 system control spec right here, it states "the 68000 is a full 32-bit CPU with the last 16-pins of the bus deactivated, in order for it to fit onto a 100-pin chip layout" perhaps you guys are disagreeing on parameters for a definition relating to 32bits 68000 used 32-bit registers for addressing (with only 24 bits of effective address or so) fare: Not quite, the 68000 was pipelined, could do 320bit apps in a single cycle while featching the next instruction but 32bit os's run on 68000 quite a few 32-bit OS's I'd note Again, you must be confusing with 68020 or 68030 BSD, UNIX, Amiga * dtm/#tunes would note fare: u are wrong man, give up fare: I am sorry, you are very wrong liar: am I? liar: let's kill him fare: yes u are fare: dont worry; he's just a liar ok, I will have to find back some 68000 documentation... fare: I have a ton of it, want some? fare: u go do that Downix: sure, from the software side, the 68000 was a 32-bit computer but in its internal, it had a 16-bit core. * Downix/#tunes digs through his box marked "Motorola tech manuals" and it can dance a mean jig fare: Afraid not dude. 07:00pm fare: Unless of course we're referring to a different 68000 than the one labelled MPU68000 from a small company called Motorola Downix: small, hehe I even have a very old tech book from 1981 here man I love these chips can you confirm from those books? fare: yes I can. fare: Call up motorola and ask for a manual for it, they'll ship you onw do you have timings for 32-bit and 16-bit adds? lemme dig em out can you confirm the "pipeline" assertion? * Downix/#tunes needs to find the BIG book for that one fare: By "pipeline" it is simply the chips ability to featch an instruction while an instruction is being processed IIRC, the 32-bit ALU ops would take 2-4 cycles more than 16-bit ALU ops. Downix: oh, instruction prefetch, sure. not a true pipeline, but closer to one than existed prior, in the x86 series for example fare: You're right about the timings BTW. But allow me to refer to something from the MIPS R4000 manual of course I'm right. It had a fucking 16-bit ALU! "even tho the MIPS has a 64-bit ALU core, processing 32-bit and 16-bit commands will be finished in far less cycles than 64-bit commands" perhaps for the R4000. fare: if you were 100% right, it should be a 6-stage difference, not a 4 why, not a 4? fare: the tie-in of splitting up a command it's addition, not multiply-accumulate uh? fare: that's a common ALU procedure when dealing with higher bit-depths than the ALU can process. 4 is already 2 cycles of tie-in! well guys it's been fascinating and i've been following your conversation so far but i think it's time for me to go home. fare: no, 4 would be 3 plus 3 plus 1, where's the last 1? fare: I can't find a single manual here that says it's a 16-bit ALU, only 32-bit is there a way to change the path variable used by the shell that X is being run in without exiting from X? i'lll talk with you ladies perhaps tomorrow I DID find one that stated that there was a crippled version of the 68000, called the 68005 w/ a 16-bit ALU however liar: set PATH liar probably no more likely than it is to do so with any other process's environment so get to work on TUNES so we can obsolete that problem dtm: heh uh GUYS BYE!! liar: It's all a government conspiracy to force you to buy microsoft and Intel! * dtm/#tunes waves BYE! BUY!! BIGH???! BI!! bye=bye! ok he is an addict yup who? * Downix/#tunes rips out dtm's power cord u addict? well i'm on a ups so there 07:10pm * dtm/#tunes 's powerbook goes to battery good night ladies * Downix/#tunes drains dtm's battery by starting his car off of it heh trust me, getting thast car to start would drain any battery well, actually, the 68000 had 2 16-bit ALUs for data and one for addresses fare: That could be what this one ment "32-bit split into 2 16-bit ALU's" Downix: he will never give up, just kill him now liar: hehe fare: Technically, we'd both be right then, wouldn't we? Downix: just say "yes fare, u are correct" or he will go on all night liar: I'm more stubborn than he is. liar: Plus I have a secret weapon... Motorola R&D * Downix/#tunes hasn't talked to Art for awhile I should see how the 080 is doing anyways this is VERY off the topic we were talking why the F-CPU is RISC and now I'm the only one talking hey liar 07:20pm 080? what a 080? hey downix 68080 68080 does that exist???? I left at the 060... same idea as the 68060 but w/ a starting bus speed of 90Mhz fare: Semi, it's in prototype right now. Not official, like with all other motorola products, until weeks before shipping unlike Intel which blabbers it all over oh. Will it be 000 binary-compatible, or rather ColdFire like? what is still using 68k chips? fare: Yup. yup what? liar: Embedded apps use them quite often, so are systems like the Amiga liar: PalmPilots fare: 000 binary. fare: which ones? hum. I'm not so sure it's good news. liar: all my pilot uses a dragonball 68328 liar: also, the linux-on-a-simm its an embedded 68k chip liar: yup, that's what we said fare: the 68k gets great performance, and is very solid. ok let me rephrase my question. what uses a friggin 680x0 chip liar: Whirlpool whirlpool is gonna use a 68080? liar: They're using the 68060 now, why not upgrade? in what? well, in what is that ROM code written? If it's x86 or m68k assembly, then too bad. abi: forget in what liar: I forgot in what liar: Washingmachines, dish washers, even microwaves abi: No clue why do they need a friggin 060? liar: don't have a clue * Downix/#tunes thinks that's overkill of course I've made hand calcs out of pentium II's whatever BTW, never do that, the pentium II's still have a FPU bug of course it could have been my own doing * Downix/#tunes shrugs ok, who here thinks people really need a washing machine w/ equal CPU power to a home computer? 07:30pm well if it will get my clothes when they are dirty and wash them then ya it can have an 080 lol and it would also need to put them in the dryer and then hang them up when done with an 080 it had better be able to play MP3's while it rinses Dx: PII's have FPU bug? now THAT would be cool, the washer's going, suddenly it pipes up "at the car wash!" fare: It's slight, but during cos functions I'd never get a steady function fare: get a spike I shouldn't have downix: do you have any experience in electronics? err electronics engineering, designing devices sr: Semi, I'm a hack, not a pro. i really want to learn how to make electronic devices bug in cos??? fare: it's a mathematical formula what kind of bug? precision bug? fare: more like in a certain order of numbers the FPU would be 1-2 off oh, like cos^2 + sin^2 != 1 fare: right I don't get it I trashed the thing "order of numbers"? fare: Don't ask me, someone else designed it, I just tried it out oh built it, kinda. hmm Falco rules sr: Well, I can recomend taking an electronics course. I'm enrolled for one fare: what kind of games do you want to develop? 07:40pm oh give me a break java is case sensitive and i thought those parenthesis in list were stupid hmm s/list/lisp/ liar: develop your own language sr: a universal game sr: i have liar: give me the details sr: an adventure game, where the hero must crack a computer fare: so it's going to be text based? :) it has no parens, no brackets, no semicolons, and no other stupid useless characters like a virtual unix prompt sr: no. For the computer has a graphic mode hehe, I semi-designed a quake TC where you were a valiant computer hacker braking into M$'s mainframe sr: actually, one of the first trick to crack the (virtual) computer will be to get it into backward compatible text mode. a mind game tc? liar: can i see a specification of your language? Total COnverstion where the game isn't even Quake anymore, just the same engine Downix: just use the axe to chop at the computer :D sr: hehe Downix: never heard of it, i like the halflife quake engine liar: I do too, which is why I was desining a game based on it I wanted information to crack to be hidden in games included in the (virtual) computer so that so as to solve the main game, you'd have to recursively solve subgames. fare so will you start coding it? it would be the "killer app" for TUNES :) the virtual computer is obviously something that TUNES should be doing... what will be? eihrul: read the irc log... liar: i would like to learn more about your language ah my first hello world java app :) fare: how so? excuse my naivety... cool I've yet to try Java i will soon be making $100/hr writing java apps :) eihrul: got an account on bespin? cool else see ftp.tunes.org:/pub/tunes/irc/ fare: nope or www.tunes.org/files/irc/ 07:50pm "If you couldn't care less about Java applications, you're already familiar with object-oriented concepts" that is on sun's java web page so true hmm hey, a java 3D modeller, sound good? they have java 3d stuff to make that faster I know brb liar: but then Mesa itself is just slow... so that pretty-much evens it out heh in my game, there'll be 3D s/3D/no 3D/ 3d is overused/overrated. not to meant it just makes writing games hell There are few situations where it's used where an isometric view would not contribute as much or more to game play er mention Mr_Wrong: so 3d is overused in quake? no yes. I prefer CastleWolfenstein not the 3D, the II fare: ha liar: yes Quake is a first person shooter. It wouldn't be a first person shooter without 3d 08:00pm there's 2.5D Doom runs on the Psion 5 I haven't actually downloaded it yet though. I have Nethack and Frotz and Python though doom runs on my hp48gx Cool ascii quake runs on my 486 Not as nice of a screen though Is it reasonably fast on the 48gx? What processor is the 48gx, anyway? Mr_Wrong: are you a fan of Apple? it's a Saturn 4/64bit CPU sr: that's cheating very wierd 64 bit? sr: Depends on what you mean by a fan really a 4-bit ALU, but with 64-bit register registers Tjat err that's a strange processor. The Psion has a 32 bit processor with a 16 bit instruction set to keep code size down The ARM710T there is a hyperprogramming part to it tho oops Which is actually a macrocell on a single chip computer the Cirrus Logic CL-7110 or something like that 36 MHz >>> sr [depag@phila-dialup498.nni.com] requested PING 935550556 from #tunes 08:10pm why is it that windows cant determine what hardware profile to use? 08:30pm uhuhuuuhuhuh. It might have something to do with the fact that Windows sucks. Which is why I don't use it and neither should anyone else. Mr_Wrong: that's right who's talking about windows and why? [20:23] why is it that windows cant determine what hardware profile to use? ?????? I was quoting liar that's obviously an irrational question, i think. unless he has an exemplary will, which he doesn't because he's QZ. 08:50pm so who's awake here zzz zzz * dtm/#tunes smacks yer ass with a towel make me my reflective software system, damn it! 09:00pm back hi downix 09:10pm what's up? 09:20pm HI FRIENDS hi niihau, Downix hey what's going on? nada, you? not much me am programming :D 09:30pm I am compiling cooly 09:40pm [ TUNES_ ] [ eihrul ] [ Mr_Wrong ] [ liar ] [ Crimson_ ] [ fare ] [ Plundis ] [ abi ] [ TUNES ] [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0825