IRC log started Tue Aug 10 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0810
<liar> hmm, i just got an idea on howto save some memory
<eihrul> doing what?
<abi> doing is the process of learning
<liar> instead of wasting 4k for a stupid dpl0 stack for each thread i can allocate 128 byte stacks for them
<liar> that would save 124k for every 32 threads
<liar> i could probably even fit it into 64 bytes
<liar> now i just gotta figure out how im gonna handle the allocation for them
<eihrul> could allocate them all from the same few pages
<liar> ya but i will need to create another list to handle the allocation
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<liar> i think i'll just add that to my todo_in_a_later_version list :)
<eihrul> good idea
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<liar> the reason brix never gets released is cuz i keep adding shit and doing it right away
<liar> or i think of a different way to do something and change it instead of releasing 
<liar> i guess its better to release crap soon and then release versions that just keep getting better
<liar> instead of releasing 10 years late with a perfect version
12:10am
<eihrul> we already have lots of early release CRAP
<eihrul> and i do mean crap :)
<eihrul> why bother releasing more? :)
<liar> ya but my crap works
<liar> it will do the job
<liar> brix will work good with large stacks, it will just take up more memory. when i make the stacks small it will be a huge optimization trick and ppl will love me :)
<liar> i will tell em i added ultra-fast memory compression and they will love me :)
<liar> andthey will think that m$ and all the other ppl that added memory compression to windows suck
12:20am
<liar> night
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12:30am
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<water> abi: nickometer water
<abi> 'water' is 0% lame, water
02:40am
<eihrul> abi: nickometer eihrul
<abi> 'eihrul' is 0% lame, eihrul
<water> lo
<eihrul> lo
<water> what's up?
<water> do i know you, anyway?
<eihrul> just debugging an assembler i just wrote
<eihrul> but otherwise, nope... you do not know me
<water> k
<water> why on #tunes, then?
<eihrul> do have i to have a reason to sit in an irc channel? :)
<water> no, but it's kinda rude to sit on a project's irc channel if you're not helping
<water> imo
<eihrul> a little authoritarian, aren't we?
<water> no, just trying to get tunes to work
03:10am
<eihrul> i'm in here because there are people in here who are generally knowledgeable in matters of the OS
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<water> but there are probably much better channels for that
<eihrul> maybe
<eihrul> but for now, this one is just fine
<water> sorry, i don't appreciate the useless traffic
* water/#tunes sifts through the channel logs often
<eihrul> there are a total of 7 people in here
<eihrul> i don't call it traffic
<water> it isn't usually like this
<water> three weeks ago, this channel was bustling with activity
<water> i had to go away
<eihrul> doesn't seem to be now
<water> i obviously should look elsewhere for a worthwhile project to work with.
<eihrul> will it make much difference? highly unlikely
<water> much difference to what?
<water> i was actually considering looking for help at Washington Univ CS and philosophy depts, which is nearby
<water> not another open-source project
<eihrul> tunes is not open source
<water> huh? sure it is. at least, it's supposed to be.
<eihrul> it doesn't have source to be open
<water> hehe
<water> the various prototypes are open-source at least
<eihrul> but why the connotation of open source projects being bad?
<water> well, they only work for c-coders with limited goals
<water> can you think of an open-source project not built on c?
<eihrul> sure
<water> such as?
<eihrul> blackbox, fiasco, fltk, many gtk-- wrappers, mozilla, etc
<water> bleh
<water> lame projects
<water> limited goals
<eihrul> to you perhaps
<eihrul> but then again, people could see your goals as limited
<water> it doesn't scale to tunes at all as a development model
03:20am
<eihrul> then what does?
<water> well, i limit them in different ways
<water> eihrul: i don't know, of course
<eihrul> then i don't see how you can attack something for not when you can't really define what does
<water> i'm trying to make this project work
<eihrul> maybe some direction might help :)
<water> i'm just noticing social patterns in the tunes project is all
<water> "direction"?
<eihrul> ever since i've been lurking on the tunes list the past year
<water> tunes is not an application
<eihrul> everyone has their own different idea of what tunes is
<water> yep
<eihrul> and no one person understands the goals completely of the other
<water> but Fare is the canonical Tuneser
<eihrul> or in some casses, can't explain
<water> it's his idea by default
<eihrul> too much of what tunes should be and not enough of what it is if you ask me :)
<water> sure
<water> my approach is philosophical: i try to address the places where today's languages depart from the tunes ideas
<water> the feature list idea kills tunes
<water> it's really ironic that Fare just recently backed down from endorsing Scheme, too.
<eihrul> quite
<water> yet he degrades all the rest of us for our alternative suggestions
<water> claiming that our code can't possibly become tunes
<eihrul> perhaps not, but atleast movement towards it
<water> my arrows project is supposed to provide a framework to provide languages, i/o models, or any other kind of info/knowledge structure in a clean way, but no one really sees the point
03:30am
<eihrul> sure... but you're still buckled to unclean hardware
<water> hmm
<water> but there are good abstract compiler techniques already
<water> (nothing for oses, though)
<eihrul> but usually rolling around in the dirt gets you farther... unfortunately
<water> well, i consider os-coding to be proof-of-concept in nature, not essential to the design work
<water> i.e. proving that the tunes 'language' or whatever does what we want
<eihrul> but what then?
<eihrul> it's just a proof
<water> well, we want tunes as an os to reflect on itself
<water> without an os coder having to spend a lot of time on it
<eihrul> and what exactly does that entail?
<water> how that is done is what the design of tunes is about
<water> oh
<water> well, abstract (high-level) descriptions of os functionality that can be used to create os-level code
<water> (at least that)
<eihrul> and that already exists :)
<water> in what form, though? english-written text books and manuals?
<eihrul> OSKit
<water> bleh, oskit can't be groked by software
<water> it works, but it needs people to reflect on it
<eihrul> so why couldn't software?
<water> well, i haven't looked too closely at oskit, but it's based on a c-development model, which involves low-level API functionality of modules
<eihrul> but does shoving lisp, smalltalk, or scheme over it make it any higher-level?
<eihrul> not really
<water> i don't think so either
03:40am
<water> i agree that they're nowhere close to being able to handle it
<water> and i've analyzed them in terms of complexity and such. my answer is the arrow system. i can explain those reasons too, as i have in email posts to the tunes list
<eihrul> okay... i'll bite. how exactly does the arrow system solve the problem of abstracting things to a sufficiently high level?
<water> well, i remove the usual semantics assumptions, mostly
<water> as well as reliance on text to explain things
<water> i.e. replacing identifiers with a sort of 'knowledge structure' that is gradually made more and more useful
<water> that idea is the buzzword "ontology" that i throw around too often
<eihrul> that's just answering questions with questions :)
<water> hmm
<water> there's no easy one-sentence explanation because there's nothing to relate it to
<water> well, some things are close
<eihrul> well... for startes
<eihrul> +r
<eihrul> what is the purpose of the 'knowledge structure'
<water> it describes objects formally
<water> like a declaration that is built from semantics, not syntax
<eihrul> and how is the structure itself interpreted or used?
<water> it varies
<water> it's interpreted by other ontologies, actually
03:50am
<water> ontologies tell the system what my little arrow constructs mean for a given context
<eihrul> but how does the system itself interpret the ontologies to interpret other ontologies? :)
<eihrul> recursion
<water> the whole idea is that there's some "agent" out there listening to the system describe an object or a state of affairs. the ontology is sort of small language for talking about things
<water> hehe
<water> that's what i'm working on now... bootstrapping an arrow environment that handles that in a way that others can simply use
<eihrul> well, is there even a non-easy complicated system that can interpret arrows?
<water> non-easy complicated systems? such as? (i do have a Squeak implementation of arrow logic)
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<eihrul> how does the squeak implementation handle arrows then?
<water> i guess i'm using my arrow logic support system to do just that
* Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Wed Aug  4 18:07:00 1999
<water> right now, it understands the basic geometrical relationships between arrows, and can answer questions about them and change them
<water> it also has minimal support for abstraction via my "graph" idea
<eihrul> arrows have geometrical relationships?
<water> and i have included a (for now) completely generic arrow quantifier to model dynamic properties of the system. this will be used to program it.
<water> well, arrows have a visual representation (arrows, of course). their attachment to other arrows (the references) is like a node of a graph.
<water> in other words, they connect to each other
<eihrul> but, are the geometrical relationships merely the result of interpretation or are they inherent to arrows?
<water> they're inherent, but you don't have to look at it that way. they're merely the qualifying characteristics of the arrow idea as a construct.
04:00am
<water> in other words, i picked the arrow idea to have those properties (two ordered references that point to other arrows)
<water> that way, there's only one basic type for the whole system, and the environment entirely determines "what an arrow means" or "how an arrow behaves"
<eihrul> and for the big question: where may i find your Squeak implementation at?
<water> ah
<water> abi arrow?
<abi> arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<water> http://www.tunes.org/~water/Abstract-Arrows.st
<water> most of it is documentation, and i haven't updated it in months. unfortunately, my computer is down, so i can't upload.
<water> my own version of it has an actual environment that i'm experimenting with
<eihrul> "down"?
<water> yeah, it has the flu
<water> i'm using a roommate's computer now
<water> it also has some serious hardware problems
<water> btw, you need squeak or a smalltalk to run the code
<eihrul> i don't want to run it
<water> understandable
<water> the code looks much better in a smalltalk code browser. that's why i mentioned it
<eihrul> well all i have at the moment is an xterm, so it'll have to do :)
<water> you do understand smalltalk syntax, right?
04:10am
<eihrul> somewhat
<eihrul> but a little foreign syntax isn't going to scare me off
<eihrul> i can usually discern that sort of thing easily
<water> ok. i don't use any weird coding styles anyway
<water> brb
<water> b
04:20am
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<hcf> hoy ultima
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07:40am
<hcf> hoy fare
<fare> lo hcf
07:50am
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* ElGato/#tunes hits fare on the head with an "Are you awake?!" stick
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* ElGato/#tunes is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 4 min 8 secs
<ElGato> if i were to buy one book on compiler design what would it be?
<hcf> ask the mlist
11:30am
<ElGato> and who pretell might they be?  hmmm?
<ElGato> :D
<hcf> huh?
<ElGato> abi: mlist?
<abi> i guess mlist is the formal way. IRC is good for thinking loud :)=
<hcf> abi: forget mlist
<abi> hcf: I forgot mlist
<hcf> the tunes mlist
<abi> the tunes mlist is worth reading
<ElGato> oh
<ElGato> gotcha
<hcf> uv read the comp.compilers faq's book section, right?
<ElGato> uhhh.oh of course, you think im stupid or something?
<ElGato> hehehe
<hcf> lazy != stupid
<ElGato> let's hope so
<ElGato> where may i find this fine piece of literature?
<hcf> news://comp.compilers
<hcf> also, as i recall, they recently had a thread about books
<ElGato> well...ok
<hcf> where do u usually get faqs from?
<hcf> theres ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet*
<hcf> www.faqs.org
<hcf> and html-ized faqs at ohio state
<hcf> comp.compilers hp is at http://www.iecc.com/compilers/
11:40am
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<ElGato> abi: dynamic scoping?
<abi> wish i knew, elgato
<ElGato> any volunteers?
<hcf> abi: foldoc for dynamic scoping
<abi> dynamic scoping may be sought in foldoc at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=dynamic+scoping
<ElGato> thanyou
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<ElGato> hola
12:40pm
<_sham> hey
<ElGato> im breaking down and actually getting a book on compiler design
12:50pm
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<ElGato> bienvenidos
<eihrul> lo
<ElGato> what's up?
<eihrul> nada mucho... just coding miscellaneous things
<ElGato> i see
<_sham> i'm coding a virus for BRiX, ElGato
<ElGato> good
<ElGato> that should be one of your first prioritys aas a cracker/hacker
<_sham> i'm kidding
<_sham> that would be dumb
<ElGato> no it wouldn't
<_sham> elgato: i'm not a cracker/hacker
<ElGato> non the less you should think about that for the future
<ElGato> keep qz thinking on his feet
<_sham> hmm some of the older games are pretty good
<ElGato> hunt the wumpus!
01:00pm
<fare> gakuk
<ElGato> fare!
<fare> the foldoc is greatly outdated. All lisps have been statically scoped since 1984
<fare> EG!
<fare> permanent nick  change?
* ElGato/#tunes is trying to recruit a schemer
<ElGato> fare: most likely
<ElGato> recruit him or her into tunes that is
<hcf> fare: feel free to update foldoc
01:20pm
<ElGato> fare: what's the difference between statically, dynamically, and lexicaly scoped languages
<fare> EG: a schemer?
<fare> statically scoped == lexically scoped
<fare> EG: read LiSP
<ElGato> no
<fare> EG: LiSP in Small Pieces
<ElGato> what's the difference between lexical and dynamic
<fare> hcf: gotta write a few articles
01:30pm
<smkl> let x = 0 ; let print_x () = print x ; let x = 1 prints 0 if lexical, 1 if dynamic
<ElGato> im lost
<smkl> do don't understand my syntax?
<smkl> s/do/you
<ElGato> uhhh
<ElGato> i guess
01:40pm
<fare> smkl: you forgot the ending  ; print_x () ...
<smkl> true ...
<ElGato> fare: what recent progress has been made on tunes
<ElGato> you yourself said you have no more excuses not to start coding
01:50pm
<fare> EG: I'm writing a few policitcal articles, and trying to identify what LISP dialect to use
<fare> I find standard Scheme unpleasant, because of non-lienar continuations
<ElGato> what are non-linear continuations
02:00pm
<fare> EG: see my recent messages on tunes@
<ElGato> i did
<ElGato> and it is beyond
<ElGato> me
<fare> read the docs for Clean. Or the Haskell monad documentation
<fare> then you understand what "linear" means in this context
<ElGato> :/
02:10pm
<ElGato> fare: why don't you just create your own? (HLL)
<hcf> fare: if u know what they r u should be able to explain em to ElGato
* ElGato/#tunes ^5's hcf
<smkl> main world = let new_world = remove_file "edfe" world -- now you cannot access world anymore because it's linear
<smkl> you could also hide world using monads
<smkl> (or something like that)
<fare> hcf: I could, but it'd take more time than for him to read the articles hiumself
<hcf> fare: u dont know that for sure
<ElGato> if i may interject, i think i'd probably understand it better if you just explained it to me
<fare> hcf: I believe Wadler and others are much better at explaining things than me.
<fare> hcf: if he still has problems afterwxzards, I'd happily clarify any remaining point in his mind
<ElGato> fine, where are these documents
02:20pm
<smkl> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/wadler/index.html
<smkl> abi: clean?
<abi> clean is lazy purely functional programming language with fast compiler at http://www.cs.kun.nl/~clean/
02:30pm
* fare/#Tunes is away
<ElGato> logout
<ElGato> er
<ElGato> every time
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02:50pm
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<eihrul> lo
<liar> hey
<abi> hola, liar
<eihrul> abi: stupid
<liar> abi: dont talk to me again
<hcf> she's just doing what a stupid human programmed her to do
<eihrul> which makes her equally stupid
<eihrul> for not being able to NOT do what the stupid programmer told her to
<liar> why does she only respond when i say hello/hi/hey?
<hcf> liar: its pseudo random
<fare> eihrul: are you able to NOT do what the stupid god told you to do?
<liar> so she randomly picks me, everytime, out of all the other ppl in this channel?
<eihrul> fare: i fail to see how that parallel relates 
<liar> i think u enabled the piss_off_qz option
<hcf> liar: u should feel special
<fare> eihrul: the problem is not that of abi, but that of the programmer
<hcf> liar: hmm, good idea
* hcf/#tunes puts in a piss off brand routine
<liar> heh
<eihrul> fare: that's somewhat contradictory if you ask me
<fare> or maybe the problem is with karmic disbalance
<fare> why get upset at all?
<eihrul> i'm not upset... it's sarcasm
<hcf> fare: theres no karma, its been disabled ;)
<fare> hcf: no karma?
<hcf> fare: n/m
* fare/#Tunes is reading "The Mind's I"
<fare> why haven't I read it before???
* hcf/#tunes is away: ()
<liar> i think i have that book
<fare> you think that you think you have that book, but maybe you don't
<fare> actually think you have that book, and it's just an illusion of thought.
* liar/#tunes shoots fare in the head
<fare> you think you shoot me in the head, but is that real?
<liar> its gonna be real
03:10pm
<liar> i'm gonna wrap my hands aroun yer throat and u will think u are dying and it will be real
<fare> liar: you lie!
<liar> ok then, i'm not gonna shoot u :)
<liar> and i'm not gonna wrap my hands around yer throat
<liar> brb, gotta wash the dishes so i can have a dish to put food in
03:20pm
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<liar> eihrul: u here?
<eihrul> yep
<liar> the cpu sets esp0 when returning from an interrupt right?
03:40pm
<liar> or no?
<eihrul> intel docs say no
<eihrul> or rather don't say yes
<eihrul> will look again
<liar> if esp0 is like 0x180ff0 and i set tss.esp0 to 0x181000 will that hurt anything?
<eihrul> no idea there... 
<liar> it should only read tss.esp0 when it interrupts
<_sham> question: when an interrupt handler is called, higher privilege must be granted to the handler
<eihrul> that's what i figure
<eihrul> or rather liar:
<_sham> but intel says the stack must change if higher privilege is granted
<liar> u dont need to goto a higher priv
<_sham> how are parameters passed on the stack if it msut be changed to a ring-0 stack
<liar> the handler can be dpl3
<_sham> lair: what about syscalls? don't syscalls need higher privileges?
<eihrul> nope
<liar> the esp3 is stored on the esp0 stack so u can just use that as a pointer to parms
<liar> _sham: all my syscalls do, but u dont need to
<eihrul> liar: hrmm, good idea
<_sham> why wouldn't say, Linux, need higher privileges for int 0x80 handlers that call syscall() or whatever
<eihrul> you wouldn't even have to interpret the registers
<eihrul> i don't think user level tasks can call interrupt handlers with any higher privilege than user level
<liar> ya they can
<eihrul> i thought the privilege level of the interrupt handlers was to prevent certain privilege levels from triggering certain interrupts
<_sham> but does linux int 80h switch to higher privileges for the syscall handler?
<eihrul> the code segment is non conforming 
<eihrul> so switches privs
<eihrul> least in Linux
03:50pm
<eihrul> figures....
<eihrul> people already send you messages telling you to unidle
<eihrul> and when you get back, they're idle!
<liar> heh
<eihrul> s/already/always
04:00pm
<liar> i hate tracking down bugs
<eihrul> debugger :)
<liar> UGH
<liar> why must i keep doing this
<liar> i push a register that i return shit in and then i pop the register before leaving the function
<liar> for some reason the register doesnt have the right value in it after returning :)
<liar> and i cant believe i missed it since i stepped thru that function TWICE
04:10pm
<smkl> if you had used TALx86, that would have never happened
<smkl> hehe
<liar> talx86?
<smkl> typed assembly language
<smkl> sick idea
<liar> UGH, i never even put the value in the stinkin register
<liar> well i do not think i should continue developing brix
<smkl> abi: tal is typed assembly language at http://www.cs.cornell.edu/talc/default.html
<liar> before i download this is it a binary of source?
<liar> s/of/or/
04:20pm
<smkl> it's winzip(ugh). i can't unpack it so i don't know what it includes
<smkl> they say that it has both source and executables
<liar> hmm
<liar> it would be nice if i wanted to convert all my code to it
04:30pm
<liar> i am sooo close
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04:40pm
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<liar> bochs: panic, iret: AR byte indicated non code segment
<liar> anyone know what the AR byte is?
04:50pm
<hcf> liar: see http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=aq&text=yes?pg=aq&text=yes&kl=en&r=&search=Search&q=%22AR+byte%22&d0=&d1=
<eihrul> ar byte?
<liar> hmm there is an AR bit
<liar> hmm
<liar> OF, SF, ZF, AR, PF, CF are undefined.
<liar> that is on one of those pages but the intel manual has an AF bit where that AR is
<liar> and AF has nothing to do with this
05:00pm
<eihrul> could it have something to do with a segment descriptor?
<eihrul> seeing as the AR byte "indicated non code segment"
<liar> well it does
<liar> eip=0x00400000      cs=0x0000002b      eflags=0x00000000      esp3=0x00181ff4    ss3=0x00000023
<liar> thats the stack right before iretd
<liar> eip being the top
<liar> 0x820 <bogus+32>:       0x0000ffff      0x00cff300      0x00100c00      0x00cfec00
<liar> that is my gdt
<liar> BASE=, 0, 0, 0, LIMIT=, 0fh, 0ffffh, ACCESS=, PRESENT+DPL3+ER_seg+SEGMENT_desc, TYPE=, D_bit+G_bit
<liar> wait a minute
05:10pm
<liar> that last one is screwed up
<liar> great, something is overwriting the dword at 0x828 and i have no idea what
05:20pm
<liar> heh its also overwriting the byte at 0x82d
05:30pm
<liar> ah ha found the little fucker
<_sham> liar: in windowing programs, is it better to copy the entire back-side buffer to video mem for a frame or just copy the portion that was changed? (like movement of the cursor)?
05:40pm
<liar> uhh
<liar> are u asking if u should copy the entire screen again cuz the mouse moved?
<liar> are u just being stupid or were u born that way? :)
<liar> bout damn time, brix is running its startup method at last
-:- ELGato [dave@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<liar> now im back to were i was on april 1st, but i have a better kernel now
<ELGato> liar: go on bespin's roger wilco
<liar> uhh ok let me turn on defiant
<liar> now that defiant is on i will probably play starcraft and not work on brix
<ELGato> uh i can't connect to bespin for some reason
<ELGato> was the roger wilco server taken off?
<liar> same here
<liar> and i dont remember howto restart it :)
<ELGato> i got a mic
<ELGato> i wanna test it out
<liar> hold on
<liar> ok should be running
05:50pm
<liar> did u fart?
<ELGato> i cleared my throat
<liar> talk dipshit
<ELGato> uh are you gonna talk at all?
<liar> did u hear that?
<ELGato> i heard mic clicks
<liar> u cant hear music?
<ELGato> brb
<ELGato> k i got some head phones on now
<ELGato> speak into the microphone
<ELGato> what are you doing?
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<liar> im eating
<ELGato> say something
<liar> are u using the key to transmit?
<ELGato> yes
<liar> talk
<ELGato> were you saying something?
<liar> im not gonna sit and talk so u can wack off t o my voice
<ELGato> what the hell are you afraid of?
<liar> disconnect
06:00pm
<ELGato> why?
<ELGato> damnit qz, you suck
<liar> ok connect
<liar> i jacked up the quality
<ELGato> what the hell was that supposed to be?
<liar> damnit
<liar> my mic was off
<ELGato> haha
<ELGato> do you hear me?
<liar> ya
<liar> windows sucks
<ELGato> :D
<liar> why does it turn off the mic each time u boot?
<ELGato> i wish i had doors in my house
<ELGato> then i could say what i want
<liar> eh?
<ELGato> well we haven't put them up yet
<liar> can u hear that?
<ELGato> ywah, im loading a file
<liar> eh?
<ELGato> for you to hear :D
<liar> did it sound good?
<ELGato> sorta
<ELGato> :D
<liar> know who it is?
<ELGato> no
<liar> did u just say something?
<liar> WHAT?
<ELGato> what did it sound like
<liar> hold down button for 1-2seconds, speak, continue to hold button for an additional second or 2 after u stop
<liar> ok take the mic out of yer mouth when talking :)
<ELGato> uh well i think the quality of my mic sucks
<ELGato> it sounds weird when i try to record stuff
<liar> how much $?
06:10pm
<ELGato> it came with my computer
<liar> i cant understand u
<ELGato> this mic is fucked
<ELGato> hehehe
<ELGato> yeah
<liar> heh thats kewl
<liar> the server died and i took over as host
<liar> uhm bespin is back up
<ELGato> screw it
<ELGato> i can't talk
<liar> heh
06:20pm
<_sham> hmmm
<_sham> someone on #mp3_depot on NewNet sent me a trojan
<_sham> and my auto get was on
<_sham> hehe
<liar> so
<_sham> liar but i've seen some programs (demos from hornet archive, Abuse, etc) just create a buffer and write everything into that, and then just copy the entire buffer to screen
<liar> is mirc so lame that it runs everything it gets?
<_sham> liar: i deleted it, but the point is that i find it funny that someone sent me a trojan
<_sham> liar: say something on Roger Wilco
<_sham> liar: how do you do animation with the graphics mem? just create a buffer, write into that, and only copy the portions of the buffer that are neccessary?
<_sham> also: what causes the flicker you see in Windows 95? erasing and copying?
* ELGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
<eihrul> double buffering... the solution to everything
<_sham> eihrul: ok, explain how it works
<eihrul> the problem becomes that before the eye has a chance to see the frame you just drew
<eihrul> you're already drawing over it
06:30pm
<eihrul> by drawing into a separate buffer, the frame gets left on the screen longer
<eihrul> and only copied in when it's ready
<liar> but i wouldnt copy the entier buffer just to move the cursor
<_sham> so what causes flicker?
<eihrul> that's overkill
<eihrul> sprites == good
<_sham> what causes flicker, eihrul?
-:- kermit [kermit@rrosd27.impsat.net.ar] has joined #tunes
<kermit> hello all
<ELGato> later all
-:- SignOff ELGato: #TUNES (So I dub thee unforgiven.)
<_sham> can someone answer that question? :/ i really want to know what causes the flicker
06:40pm
<kermit> bye all
-:- SignOff kermit: #TUNES ([BX] kermit has no reason... just kidding :))
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<water> hey all
06:50pm
<_sham> hi
<water> sham: new here?
<_sham> no
<_sham> /whois me
-:- Venatir [mircea1@193.231.65.11] has joined #Tunes
<water> i don't recognize the info
<Venatir> anyone who installed PCI modems ?
<Venatir> anyone who installed PCI modems ?
<water> sorry, not i
<water> what's up, sham man?
<hcf> Venatir: ask #linpeople
<hcf> water: hoy
<_sham> water: the name's from the game "Ultima VII"
<water> k
<Venatir> k
<water> what's news, hcf?
<water> btw, i've managed to pretty much prove that my ideas are unique. i spent quite a few hours last night searching for remotely similar material
-:- Venatir [mircea1@193.231.65.11] has left #Tunes []
<hcf> w/ alta, etc?
<water> and metacrawler and a few others
<_sham> no if only Fare would stop claiming to have thought of your ideas before you had :)
<water> hehe
<water> i don't want to take any credit from him
07:00pm
<water> if only my laptop weren't down with the flu
<water> oh yes, i looked closely into rewriting logic... it's pretty damn cool
<_sham> water: so are you ever going to get tired of using Windows?
* water/#tunes thinks about that.
<water> the BeOS is really looking good to me lately
<_sham> the hurd
<water> i plan to buy a desktop system soon, but can't make up my mind.
<water> hehe. does the hurd actually work now?
<_sham> i haven't used it
<water> the prototype was said to have worked, but interest fizzled, i thought
07:10pm
<_sham> water: well clementine is going to be released sometime
<water> hehe.
<_sham> clementine sounds neat
<water> perhaps i should just run Squeak over DOS. :)
* _sham/#tunes wonders if Squeak/BeOS would be good enough for water
<water> i should write an email to the Squeak team suggesting they change the VM to support self instead of smalltalk
<water> it might. squeak does run on it
<_sham> well i'd choose BeOS over windows
<water> there IS that company making "geek machines" or something preloaded with beos/linux
<water> they have celeron cpu's and 3dfx cards
<_sham> do you know of the web address?
* water/#tunes looks
<_sham> water is a geek, therefore water should get a geek machine
<water> i'm not sure of that
<_sham> what i find interesting about you is that even though you are very much interested in logic and logic systems, you still have a lot of experience in actual coding
<water> which i stopped doing a while ago, though. and i haven't really touched actual os coding... i hacked something together once, but that's different
<_sham> it's as if you are "burned out" on coding
<water> definitely so. it's probably my ideals that did it.
<_sham> well bye
-:- _sham [sham@phila-dialup251.nni.com] has left #tunes []
07:20pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us832.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<water> wb
<hcf> water: what r u looking into at wash univ?
<water> i want to find cs (or philosophy or mathematics) majors or professors to collaborate on papers and brain-storming.
<hcf> kindred
<water> sure, but i'm not expecting too much.
<water> it's just that academia can pull for more resources than i can
<water> this journal i'm interested in subscribing to costs $300 per year
<hcf> christ
<water> and it's one among several
<water> and you can't get the discount unless you go to school
<hcf> whats the journal name or hp url?
<water> JoLLI: the Journal of Logic, Language, and Info.
07:30pm
<water> http://turing.wins.uva.nl/
<water> it's on that site somewhere
<hcf> http://www.folli.uva.nl/Jolli/
<water> yeah
<hcf> icuc, http://colibri.let.ruu.nl/
<water> hmm. interesting
<water> you know, it's really funny that i stumbled on this paper last night about information theory and it hinted about atomicity, and it used the word "arrow", but only in reference to the physical weapon
<hcf> heh
<water> bits, bits, bits...
<water> i think i almost can make a good formal argument for arrows over bits, but it requires explaining my idea of an information system vs the conventional meaning. mine basically plays a social role, ultimately
<water> i assume that the #modtunes channel will not succeed
<hcf> it will when ppl r around
<water> yes
07:40pm
<hcf> we havnt tested it yet
<water> tested what, though?
<hcf> we need a logger and a good discussion to have
<water> ahh
<water> any one of us can log it
<hcf> i mean, 4+ ppl
<water> Fare is obviously re-thinking his choice about Scheme
<hcf> a full meeting would be nice, but noone cares right now
<water> what about Tril or beholder?
<hcf> both quite busy
<hcf> 0809:<Tril> i got a job at NAS the ISP bespin is hosted at
<water> oh right
<water> i thought it was part time or something like that
<water> hell, i have a job, too!
<hcf> tril last i knew was also working mostly on his type system thing
<water> right, and slowly too
<water> he gets less help than i do
* water/#tunes is currently getting a research-paper download fix.
<hcf> any different terms i could search with for u?
<water> not really, but thanks
07:50pm
<hcf> if i'm not used, i'll become rusty ;)
* water/#tunes thinks
<water> "modality" - i could use a paper that talks in depth about the idea
<hcf> hmm, something by jmc, http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/modality.html
<water> got it
<water> i have his whole site, actually
<hcf> http://ecampus.humnet.ucla.edu/classes/philos176-lec1-97f/syllabus.html
08:00pm
<water> hmm. interesting, but there's no material on-line.
<hcf> http://ling.ucsc.edu/~chalmers/mind.html
<water> whoa. very cool.
<hcf> http://home.ican.net/~arandall/Summary.html
<water> rock on!
<hcf> if i go this route any further, i'l probly just hit pages already linked to by the 1st of the last 2
-:- SignOff liar: #TUNES (Ping timeout for liar[p0wer.qzx.com])
<water> right. thanks
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<water> oh yeah, i explained my arrow system ideas to a Java/Perl programmer today. it blew his mind away.
<water> he nearly reeled over when i told him about Aspect-Oriented Programming and what Xerox did with it and Java
<hcf> does it take much to blow a web-coder's mind?
<eihrul> aspect orientation?
<water> abi: aop?
<abi> aop is at http://www.parc.xerox.com/spl/projects/aop/
<eihrul> thank ye
<water> no prob
<hcf> abi: aspect orientation is see aop
08:10pm
<eihrul> stunk... last night i was trying to read your squeak code
<eihrul> and the power went out
<eihrul> for 4 hours
<water> ouch
<eihrul> just as i got about 1/4th through
<water> so that's why you were cut off i\and didn't return
<eihrul> yessir
<eihrul> the lightning had other plans for me it seems
<water> mmm.... lightning
<water> :)
<water> sorry, i guess i grok'd nietzsche a little too well
<eihrul> should probably finish reading it :)
<water> who? you?
<eihrul> yeah, your squeak code i mean
<water> oh
<water> there's not much to it, actually
<eihrul> well, even so
<eihrul> i didn't finish reading it :)
<water> k
<water> why the hell are the ChaOSers hanging around here when they don't ever talk?
<eihrul> they've been idle on their own IRC server for days now
<eihrul> chances are they're not really here at all
08:20pm
<liar> ok got my game time in, since that jackass elgato made me turn that machine on. now i can get back to work on brix
-:- j [j@c34068-a.lakwod3.co.home.com] has joined #tunes
<water> game time in?
<water> hi, j
<liar> ya i played starcraft
<j> hi water.
<water> liar: ah
<water> j: have we met before, j?
<j> water: i dont recall such, but it's entirely possible.
<water> ok
<water> j: are you new to tunes?
<j> yes. was bored so i followed somebody in from another channel
<water> well, quite a few here are hibernating, it seems.
<j> as per usual...
<water> j: what are you interested in?
<hcf> j: u stalking me ;)
<liar> j: so tell us about yerself
<j> hcf: i am. :)
<j> www.x25.org
<j> easily sums things up. has a short personal page + what i do for a living.
<j> i'm female, pregnant, and on strict bedrest because of such, which makes me a geek with a lot of time on my hands.
<j> that also sums things up. :)
<water> hehe. i don't hear _that_ very often
<water> what do you think of tunes, j?
<j> if there's any bad links or images on that web page plz let me know, it was just redesigned lately.
<water> it looks pretty good
<j> it's sort of missing something on the front page
<j> but i'm uninspired
<j> i'm looking at www.tunes.org now, and still trying to figure out exactly what it is :)
<j> Tunes is a Useful, Nevertheless Expedient System
<j> as tasteful as that is, it's not very explainitory :)
08:30pm
<water> hehe
<liar> tunes is a specification for the perfect OS, but it will never actually be an OS
<water> look at the FAQ
<j> yah, i'm hitting the FAQ now.
<water> Fare used the word "infrastructure" a few too many times, i think
<water> wow. the FAQ is quite improved. is this the result of the last few weeks?
<j> hmm.
<liar> core has been working on it
<water> ok. good for him
<water> or rather, good for us. thanks to him.
08:40pm
<water> hcf: thanks for the links. they will be very helpful.
<j> it seems sometimes elborate language is used in excress and somewhat distracts from gleaning more relevant meaning from the text.
<j> as if somebody is trying to make the whole thing sound more aesthetically pleasing than really getting a technical point across perhaps...
<water> well, our technical points are in the review section, really
<hcf> water: np
<liar> ok brix is functional, no to make the startup load the keyboard and screen methods
<liar> s/no/now/
* eihrul/#tunes looks at his un-functional microkernel and suddenly feels inadequate.
<liar> j: that is fare for u
<hcf> water: http://www.irit.fr/JANCL/abstract-6.1.html
<liar> j: water is also like that
<abi> okay, liar.
<liar> hcf: im gonna kill abi
<water> abi: me?
<abi> you are at http://www.tunes.org/~water/water.html or an expression of the Tao or like that
<water> darn
<hcf> soon, u'l be able to go, 'abi: water =~ s/or like that//'
<liar> kewl
<liar> hcf: when will i be able to go, abi: die and erase all your code and data
<hcf> liar: what would the point be? she's backed up
<liar> hcf: can u make abi not reply when i use the word also?
<liar> and can u make it not reply when i say hi/hey/hello?
<water> j: questions?
<hcf> liar: i'v fixed the hello thing (i think) in the newer version
<j> hm.
<j> looks interesting...
<water> j: we definitely don't pretend to have all the answers
<j> whether it will ever be a reality comes to mind :)
<j> and it doesn't really say what you're writing in, except mentioning lisp at one point
<liar> scheme
08:50pm
<j> so it will be to OS's what emacs is to editors?
<water> i have a prototype written in smalltalk
<hcf> half cobol and half intercal
<j> ok..
<water> j: kind of, but it address interfaces with reflection, too
<j> i'm not sure i catch that whole relfection bit... perhaps you could summarize it into something bite sized?
<water> a reflective software system can examine _how_ it works at run-time and change it
<j> self aware/self modifying code?
<water> in a general sense, yes
<j> sounds like quite the endeavor...
<water> but in a way that is semanticallt clean
<water> well, it explains why we don't have a "language spec" yet
<j> haha
<j> indeed.
<j> how long has this been in the works?
<water> 5 years now, i think. my idea is very similar, and is now about 6 years old.
<water> i only joined last year, though
<j> wow
<water> it's a little embarrassing, actually
<hcf> water: http://www.illc.uva.nl/Publications/Lists/www-allseries-all.html
<water> although i've been working alone for almost all of that time
<water> hcf: yeah, i already mine that archive for papers
09:00pm
<water> damn! i am just sooo close to being able to write good papers on my system.
<water> i would kill for someone with which to discuss theory.
* water/#tunes contemplates whether selling crack to nuns would actually help.
<water> nah! :)
<j> hah
<j> i'd discuss with you all day, but i'm not exactly studied on os theory
<water> i'm actually into logic research areas
<water> i.e. the horse before the cart
<water> although i do study os design, too
<water> most people don't realize that the family of logics has actually extended to nearly encompass most all paradigms of computation
<j> most people probably dont think about it :)
<eihrul> which could be why they don't realize...
<j> i'm pretty fond of logic myself, hence being interesting in programming, but i'm not formerally studied on any of it.
09:10pm
<j> water: know anything about natural language processing?
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-245.tscnet.net])
<j> or not...
-:- water [water@ppp-ip124-b59.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> back
<j> <j> water: know anything about natural language processing?
<water> yep
<j> it's sort of something i'm looking at these days
<water> the research site i'm focusing on tonight has a lot on it, but it's very abstract stuff, though advanced
<j> hm.
<water> dynamic logics and multi-modal logics
<j> i want something less abstract and more geared towards implimentation
<water> hehe
<water> i haven't looked into open-source parsers lately
<water> there must be some very good ones somewhere
<j> i searched the web and found very very little
<j> almost all theory
<water> hmm
<j> i want to implement something fast and easy in perl
<j> i dont want to win the turing test, just something usable
<j> well, i mean, i wouldn't mind winning the turing test :)
<water> don't know. i'd recommend re-using someone else's code, but i wouldn't know where to look. perhaps hcf can help.
<water> hcf: any ideas?
09:20pm
<j> if there was code available that really fit what i was doing that'd be great
<j> i want to make it so that the database design really integrates well with the code design to get the best performance and accuracy
<water> i worked on parsers and parser schemes for a while, but i don't keep much code.
<j> it sounds sort of goofy, but i want to make a really really good infobot. have it web/irc/icq/anything client/server with an open spec adaptable
<j> then use it for things like technical support and reference, customer assistance....
<water> k
<j> rather than just trivial irc factoids
<j> sound interesting/dumb/redudant?
<water> interesting and slightly redundant
<j> i know it's been done, but i have yet to find one that's been done *really* well
-:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-170.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes
<water> actually, that's the only open-source interest i've ever seen in the idea
<water> beh!
<Beholder> water! :) You're back :)
<water> but my laptop is sick :(
-:- user1 [user1@195.26.132.185] has joined #tunes
<water> my paper-writing has gone on un-plugged
<water> hi, userOne
<Beholder> wat: What are you on at the moment?
<water> i've got the specs on reflective arrow logic worked out, and a few simple lemmas have been worked out
<water> also, i'm refining my ideas for the other papers
<user1> hi to everyone
<water> like ontologies and information systems and atoms
<Beholder> Hey User1
* water/#tunes realizes he's probably going to scare off newbies with this kind of talk.
<water> sorry
<Beholder> wat:  Yeah I guess that stuff is necessary for practicality reasons ;)
<Beholder> wat:  I'm sure it's not as good as you're good news, but I got FreeBSD working as an internet sharing server in my house.  (and I'm happy with it so far).  
<user1> I'm just testing ircII 
<water> beh, user1: ok
<water> user1: familiar with tunes?
09:30pm
<Beholder> water:  I also jumped in here to see if everything on the IRC end was working.  But I'm glad to hear you have made some progress :)
<water> beh: ok. thanks.
<user1> Sorry, no
<water> user1: n/m then.
<user1> Bye
<water> ok, bye user1
-:- SignOff user1: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Beholder> wat:  So how was your trip?
<water> well, with my computer acting up, not very good.  i and Maneesh also were too busy while i was in San Diego to meet.
<Beholder> Crappy...
<Beholder> What's up with the laptop?
<liar> water: actually maneesh came on here asking if we had talked to u cuz u stood him up
<liar> he was all like "that bitch was suppose to come see me today but didnt, u guys hear from him?"
<water> the cd-rom drive kicked the bucket and i think there's either a virus loading with explorer or some corrupted driver keeps hogging time-slices when windows boots.
<liar> i think those are his exact words
<Beholder> liar: Hmm... you're nick doesn't lend credibility to that statement ;)
<water> bleh. i guess that i upset him
<liar> Beholder: read the logs
<Beholder> wat:  Oh... not good.  Maybe it's time for a re-install.
<water> beh: but i need the cd-rom drive to re-install
<liar> water: maybe its time for... linux
<Beholder> liar:  Of course, I was only joking :)
<water> liar: maybe its time for a hole in the head
<Beholder> wat:  Hmm... good point.  What brand name of laptop is it 
<j> water: if you run windows you already.. er....
<j> :)
<liar> my linux machines never *act* up
<water> beh: NEC Ready 340T
<liar> j: haha
<liar> nec ready for the trash 340T
<Beholder> liar:  If it's a hardware problem... I don't think Linux would help
<water> liar: i bet your linux machines have you behave very well for them.
<Beholder> hehe
<Beholder> wat:  I've only dealt with Compaq and IBM, but I'm sure a big company like NEC has a good replacement/warantee policy
<eihrul> water: as opposed to windows machines not behaving at all for you :)
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<ElGato> water!!!
<water> well, if you guys have suggestions for what my next computer should be, i'm all ears. i just hate using linux.
<water> elgato: HS!
<eihrul> there's minix 
* ElGato/#tunes ^5's the navy man
<j> lynxos!
* water/#tunes clarifies
<liar> water: $30 for a celeron 366, 4.3gig, 32meg system
<Beholder> wat:  Focus on your ideas, not your tools.  I use Windows for work also.
<water> i despise Unix clones
<liar> er $300
09:40pm
<ElGato> water: if i am to invest some money in a first book on compiler design what should it be?
<liar> agp video, ethernet, 56k, sound
<water> a _first_ book? the _red dragon_ book, probably.
<ElGato> ok
<water> any major bookseller carries it
<liar> ElGato: brix is running again
<j> bbl
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<Beholder> Liar:  Why bother the sound in Linux is flakey.  My Live card certianly can attest to that.
<ElGato> liar: is this version more interactive?
<liar> ElGato: i said the kernel is working again
<ElGato> is there any difference between the dragon book and the red dragon book?
<liar> ElGato: i need to rewrite the startup method to support the new kernel
<ElGato> liar: oic
<water> elgato: same thing
<ElGato> k
<Beholder> liar:  What the hell QZ, why'd you change yer nick?
<liar> ElGato: could u PLEASE disable yer lame nick completion
<ElGato> i think the dragon book is a must read (from all the references i've seen to it)
<liar> Beholder: to confuse u
<ElGato> uh i don't know anything about bitchx
<ElGato> so i don't care
<liar> then get the fuck out of it
<ElGato> no
<ElGato> i like where my fuck is thankyou  very much
<liar>  /SET FORMAT_NICK_AUTO $0:$1-
<liar>  /SET FORMAT_NICK_COMP $0:$1-
<liar> type that
<ElGato> only if you tell how to make it so i don't see netsplit info and oper kills
<ElGato> im sick of that
<liar> wait
<liar> edit .BitchX/BitchX.formats
<liar> and replace those two lines
<liar> cuz bitchx wont save those formats for some reason
<ElGato> ok
<liar>  /set swatch
<liar>  /save
<liar> formating is in .BitchX/BitchX.formats and client crap is in .BitchX/BitchX.sav
<water> blah blah blah
<liar> so go play with them in an editor
<ElGato> liar: don't steal my sunshine
<ElGato> ok?
<liar> yes
<liar> did u change em in .formats?
<ElGato> no
<ElGato> i don't feel like it
<liar> well it will revert back when u restart
<ElGato> not right now
<ElGato> what's wrong with nick completion?
09:50pm
<liar> u have a stupid BOLD character by default
<ElGato> :(
<liar> it makes the colon bold
<ElGato> :{(
<ElGato> |:{)
<liar> and it screwed up my script and makes all yer text purple
<ElGato> wtf is elgato.gif?
<liar> look at it
<ElGato> uh i gotta ftp it and shit
<liar> why?
<ElGato> i don't have enough money to buy a linux distribution right now
<ElGato> i may do it from the slackware disks but that'll take a while
<liar> u can get rh6 for like $2
<ElGato> yeah right
<liar> i got a 2cd rh6 for $9
<liar> $9 included s&h
<ElGato> i see it for like 69$
<liar> noooo
<liar> the $69 has a commercial x server
<ElGato> $69 rather
<liar> metroX i think
<liar> and it has some other commercial shit
<Beholder> I think you can FTP most of Debian, if you want to download the boot disks.
<ElGato> i don't want rh anyways
<liar> www.lsl.com
<ElGato> im gonna get slack
<liar> slack blows
<liar> get debian or rh
<ElGato> bah!
<ElGato> debain or slack
<liar> u will like rh6 more
<ElGato> rh sucks fare's bald nutsack
<liar> it installs in 10 minutes and looks just like win98
* Beholder/#tunes says spend the $968 and just buy NT... heheh
<liar> hah
<ElGato> NT sucks
* Beholder/#tunes clarifies NT "server"
<ElGato> it has 99 percent uptime
<ElGato> that's pretty bad
<Beholder> Actually, I'm running FreeBSD right now.  If you like Slack, it's very similar and has most of the Linux packages (better networking it seems also)
<liar> bleh
<Beholder> Even easier to setup than RH
<ElGato> im gonna start tommorrow
10:00pm
<liar> nothing could be easier to setup then rh6
<Beholder> Liar: What's wrong with BSD?
<ElGato> it's gonna be a bitch without the cd though
<liar> ElGato: u know its a bitch to install non-windows on a dell machine right?
<ElGato> yeah
<liar> u wont have sound
<ElGato> no?
<liar> u will be using the vga x server 640x480 16 colors
<liar> cuz it dont support the dell video card
<ElGato> why?
<Beholder> liar:  I thought the new Dell machines have ATI cards
<ElGato> dell doesn't just have *one* video card
<liar> Beholder: no they use the ati chipset
<liar> Beholder: the machXX x servers wont work with it
<Beholder> liar:  Mach64 server should work then?
<Beholder> liar: Oh... why not?
<liar> they just dont
<ElGato> the problem with dell is they only have winmodems
<Beholder> Well, I sell/buy whitebox clones, and always with good hardware :)
<liar> ya and yer fucked with that winmodem
<ElGato> there should be a driver for a winmodem though
<liar> Beholder: ah ya nothin but the best
<liar> ElGato: nope
<liar> ElGato: they dont release specs on them 
<liar> man im faced with a tough choice
<ElGato> wtf
<ElGato> i gottaget anew modem
<liar> att bought tci, the cable company here, last year and now they are gonna bring cable modem to utah (something tci said they would never do)
<Beholder> ElG: I'd reccomend an external USR 56K... nice modem
<liar> my fone lines are multiplexed so i will never see 56k/isdn/dsl in this house
<liar> but if i get cable modem i will lose my static ip subnet
<ElGato> liar: get a t1
<Beholder> I'd go with the cable...  it's worth it if you do a lot of downloading
<liar> anyway to merge a cable modem route with a 33.6 modem route so i can have bandwidth and subnet?
<ElGato> heh, for a price i'll hook up some phone lines for you
<Beholder> not without slowing the cable down to modem speed I imagine...
10:10pm
<Beholder> You'd have to route the cable through the modem through IP Masq I think
<liar> i dont want ip masq
<liar> mayeb ill just move
<ElGato> shit i don't have money for a new modem
<liar> how much u got?
<Beholder> Well then stick with what you got... 
<ElGato> $0
<liar> send me $15 and ill send u a nice 14.4
<water> well, i
<ElGato> fuck no
<water> well, i'll be back in about 4 hours or so
<liar> yer current winmodem will connect at exactly 0k, so my 14.4 will be a huge speed increase for u :)
<ElGato> i'll just wait till adsl come to my town in september
-:- water [water@ppp-ip124-b59.tscnet.net] has left #tunes []
<liar> ElGato: adsl was suppose to come to my town last year
<liar> ElGato: im STILL wating
<ElGato> well your fone company sucks
<liar> yes indeed they do
<liar> goto their web page and complain for me www.usworst.com
<ElGato> mine doesn't know how to treat the customer right but they sure give good deals
<liar> my fone company gave me back $75 that they stole from me
<liar> im still waiting for the other $200
<ElGato> uh i'd say something but this is all logged
10:20pm
<liar> then there is that $400 in insurance they stole from me
<liar> i would like that back too but...
<ElGato> liar: get em back
<liar> well i thought about plug ac power into my rj11 but the lines are all buffered so it wouldnt affect them
<ElGato> trying to bloto box em eh?
<liar> bloto?
<ElGato> you know anything about phone phreaking?
<liar> i know what it is
<liar> i have never done it
<ElGato> well a bloto box is where you hook a large power source into your fone jack
<liar> the only problem with that is it would burn my house down
<ElGato> nah
<liar> cuz all the 500 gauge fone line wires would catch fire
<ElGato> the fuses would just burn out
<liar> but not before the wires explodedd
<liar> u havent seen uswest wires
<ElGato> hehehe
<liar> and i have more fones in this house then radio shack does
<liar> network cable and fone lines to every room
<ElGato> or you do the opposite and drain all the power out of the line and screw up the FBI lock and trace
<liar> well a couple rooms wouldnt burn down cuz they got those ac transmitted fone lines
<ElGato> that's what we call an aqua box
10:30pm
<ElGato> or you can power household appliances with the phone line power
<ElGato> i forgot what that's called
<liar> uhh i dont know what kinda fone lines u got where u live but there is not enuf current or voltage to more any of my appliacnes
<liar> s/more/power/
<ElGato> there's like 10 volts in the line
<ElGato> lemme check my fone reference
<liar> 15
<liar> 12 or 15
<liar> and no curent
<liar> its gonna be a cold day in hell before the fone line powered toaster crisps yer bread
<ElGato> nah its got some current
<liar> ya measured in ma
* ElGato/#tunes thinks  liar is using his multimeter right now
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
10:40pm
<liar> did i give u pt_crt.inc?
<ElGato> i don't think so
<liar> i think so
<liar> it clears the 4k page table and then writes the pages addresses into the table
<liar> could u modify it so that it writes the addresses first and then clears the table?
<liar> right now it wastes cycles by clearing memory that will just be written to right after
<liar> if i had a 4meg object it would clear all 1024 dwords and then write them all in
<liar> and u can slap yer name in the header
<liar> :)
<ElGato> really?! honest and for true?!
<liar> ya
<ElGato> why can't you just write ove what you already have?
<liar> i could do it but its not important right now
<liar> but its buggin the hell outta me knowing that is slowing brix down 
<liar> i want it to write over what i already have
<liar> but the entries after what the object uses NEED to be cleared
<ElGato> why does it clear it in the first place then?
<liar> clearing them says there is no physical page mapped to that virtual address
<ElGato> k
<ElGato> i'll see what i can do
<liar> right now it clears all and then fills
<liar> it needs to fill and then clear the remaining entries that it didnt fill
<ElGato> ok
<ElGato> why do you put the copyright shit in there
<ElGato> i know it isn't copyrighted
-:- ruiner [nate@ppp331.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<ElGato> hi ruiner
10:50pm
<ruiner> hi
<ruiner> whats up?
<liar> it is copyrighted
<ruiner> what is?
<ruiner> urine smell?
<ElGato> how much did it cost?
<liar> a few years ago they passes a law that says u just need to add that copyright shit and put it on a secure site
<ruiner> depends on what you drank to get it
<liar> cuz too many ppl were copyrighting shit
<eihrul> i thought copyrights were implicit and explicitly statement thereof is just warning?
<eihrul> -ly
<liar> and its $20 to copyright shit
<liar> first and last 50 pages of source
<eihrul> ack, when did they start charging?
<ruiner> I should copyright the pattern of the hair on my butt
<liar> eihrul: that was about 10 years ago
<ElGato> liar: www.phonelosers.net/sound/pla_bomb.ra
<eihrul> why should i have to pay to declare i own something?
<eihrul> that's just heinious
<liar> ruiner: no get a patent
<liar> patents are $500
<ElGato> im gonna trademark the name "God"
<eihrul> costs $50 to copyright the hair on your butt...
<eihrul> that just sucks
<liar> u should patent any idea that comes to mind
<liar> then u can later sue companies right and left
<eihrul> patent the idea of a man saving people
<eihrul> then you can sue every action movie
<eihrul> the catholic church
<eihrul> any charities :)
<eihrul> it would work very well
<ElGato> yes indeed
<ElGato> i like god better
<eihrul> but god applies to less things
<ElGato> mabye i'll trademark ala
<eihrul> you'd have less to sue
<liar> but u need to take out the trademark before it reaches mainstream
<eihrul> patent a system for encoding information in a base 26 numbering system :)
<eihrul> if you're lucky... they probably wouldn't even notice the prior art
<ElGato> base 32 dude
<liar> eihrul: ya but u need to sue everyone at once or u cant sue anyone
<eihrul> yeah... exactly
<eihrul> you get to sue the whole english speaking world!
<eihrul> you could make them use sign language unless they pay you royalities :)
<ElGato> only in the US
<liar> like that company that m$ had sue netscape over the save as dialog box
<eihrul> haha... i remember that
<liar> they only targeted netscape and not the thousands of other companies so they lost
<liar> plus they had the patent for years before they sued
<eihrul> they should have sued GNOME
<eihrul> would probably have been easier
11:00pm
<ElGato> you need to jpatent a form of illegal narcotics
<eihrul> too much prior art
<ElGato> no way dude
<eihrul> another thing that irks me about patents
<ElGato> it makes a couple more things people get in trouble for
<eihrul> they have to purposely try in obfuscate the english language in ways noone ever intended
<ruiner> I never heard that about the netscape save as dialog box
<liar> ruiner: its true
<ruiner> when was that?
<eihrul> it was on slashdot many months ago
<liar> its been about a year
<ruiner> details....
<liar> some tiny company had a patent on the save as dialog box used in everything
<eihrul> the article might still be on slashdot
<liar> but they didnt defend it until m$ came to them and gave em a large chunk of cash
<ruiner> wait...doesn't ms have a save as dialog box?
<liar> so they sued netscape cuz m$ wanted to hurt them
<liar> ruiner: exactly
<liar> a patent becomes worthless if u dont immediately defend it and u must sue everyone
<ruiner> assholes
<liar> which costs money
<ruiner> how can it be proven that ms started it?
<liar> the company had recently signed a deal with m$
<liar> they became "buddies"
<liar> u know the m$ tactic "u sue this company with yer patent and we let u live for another month"
<ruiner> heh heh heh....buddies....ms is in bed with so many other companies...
<eihrul> so more like fuck buddies
<liar> did u know that ibm pays more for windows than what it costs in the store?
<eihrul> why so?
<liar> cuz they have lotus on their machines
<liar> oem's like dell/compaq/etc pay around $60 and ibm pays around $125
<eihrul> it's not like they're exactly pressed for cash though...
<ruiner> yeah
<ruiner> I knew that...stupid ms
<ruiner> dates back to when ibm refused to stop working on os/2
<liar> eh?
<ruiner> ms didn't give ibm the specs to windows or something cuz of that....bastards
11:10pm
<liar> ibm owns the code to win3.x
<ruiner> yeah, go read up
<ruiner> but not 95
<ElGato> heh
<liar> ya cuz m$ broke away
<ElGato> they shoudl port 3.x to linux
<ruiner> ms and ibm struck a deal about it like hours before 95 was released
<ruiner> ibm sued claiming that all the time they lost to competition cost them lots
<ruiner> good idea gato
<ruiner> or release the code
<ruiner> I'd love to see the win 3.x code
<ElGato> i love win 3.x
<ElGato> it's api is better than x i bet too
<ruiner> its ok....dos was my favorite environment
<liar> i think releasing the code would violate the m$ copyrights
<ruiner> hmmm......
<ruiner> so they'd have to port it on their own....?
<ruiner> make them an offer gato....get hired to port win to linux
<liar> they can port it, they just cant release source code
<liar> u would have to download a binary from ibm
<ElGato>   let's all email ibn and tell them to port it
<ElGato> s/ibn/ibm
<ruiner> ibn
<ruiner> ibm
<ruiner> s
<ruiner> I'm bored, lets talk design
<ruiner> or how oop is inherently flawed
<ElGato> dooo tell me why it's flawed
<ruiner> ;-p @ eihrul
<ElGato> it will help me on my language design
<ruiner> I'm just joking, I don't wanna get into that again
<eihrul> but it was fun man
<ruiner> no way
<ElGato> D:
<ruiner> and my opinion hasn't changed
<ElGato> you
<ElGato> you
<eihrul> neither has mine
<ElGato> _lied_
<ElGato> to me
<ElGato> you lied to me
<ElGato> how could you?
<eihrul> who did?
<ElGato> ruiner
<ruiner> did I?
11:20pm
<ElGato> you said you were joking
<ElGato> that means you lied to me
* ElGato/#tunes is saddened by this show of the dark side of human nature
<ElGato> mabye i shall hang myself
<ruiner> hopefully
<ruiner> just kidding
<eihrul> yeah, hanging is kind of painful
<eihrul> bullets are a bit faster
<ruiner> I'd suggest tying a brick to your member and tossing the brick off the roof of a tall building
<ElGato> nah if done right, i'll be dead when my neck snaps
-:- SignOff Plundis: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Plundis[chaosdev.org])
<eihrul> sheesh... plundis has been idle forver
<eihrul> s/for/fore
-:- SignOff Crimson: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Crimson[chaosdev.org])
<liar> bummer chaos crashed :)
<eihrul> seems so
<eihrul> they do a lot of crashing
11:30pm
* ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
<liar> man it takes alot of time to write a good os
<eihrul> i'm just beginning to see that :)
<eihrul> it's taken me long enough to even figure out enough stuff to get an inkling of what a good os is
11:40pm
<liar> oh great, my call gates arent working
<eihrul> what are the benefits of using call gates versus trap gates?
<liar> i have a million hurdles to get over and it takes a day for each one
<eihrul> i can't seem to find any documentation anywhere
<eihrul> on the pros/cons of both
<liar> well i know that call gates are faster than int gates :)
<eihrul> really?
<liar> ya
<liar> they dont push eflags :)
<eihrul> how many cycles does that take?
<liar> a ring-to-ring int takes 48 cycles and a no-ring int takes 31
<eihrul> and then doesn't the fact that arguments are copied from one stack to another takes some time too?
<eihrul> since you have to push registers anyway
<liar> what arguments?
<eihrul> to syscalls
<liar> ohhh i dont use that count shit
<eihrul> you put the arguments in registers?
<liar> i read them directly from the user stack
<liar> wtf
<liar> this crap manual is now saying it takes 44 cycles to do ring-ring call
<eihrul> but isn't it easier to put them in registers?
<eihrul> since you have to save the registers upon enterring syscalls anyway?
<liar> i put params in registers
<liar> but sometimes u need more space
<eihrul> ah
<liar> piss, now i gotta convert all my call gates to int gates
<eihrul> why?
<liar> cuz calls gates are slower
<liar> oh wait
<eihrul> you said int's are 48 cycles though
<liar> yes i did
<liar> im tired and was comparing it to the 31
11:50pm
<liar> u know anything about call gates?
<eihrul> just what i've read and what i've seen
<eihrul> so the 4 cycles difference is basically pushing eflags?
<liar> ya
-:- SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-170.m2-3.sub.ican.net]: Connection reset by peer)
<liar> and its 45+2x if u copy params
<eihrul> ack
<eihrul> are you using one call gate per syscall?
<eihrul> or putting the request number in a register?
<liar> y
<liar> ya
<eihrul> yes, 1st one?
<liar> 1per
<liar> its faster to do 1 per
<eihrul> can far calls take immediate data?
<liar> ya
<eihrul> ah, okie
<liar> (0) 002b:0040000a: 9a000000000301: call 0103:00000000
<liar> ofcourse an int gate would be alot smaller
<eihrul> 2 bytes
<liar> 2 bytes compared to that beastly call
<eihrul> do the extra 5 or 6 bytes to encode the call actually make the instruction itself slower?
<liar> no
<eihrul> or do caches nullify that?
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0811
IRC log ended Wed Aug 11 00:00:00 1999