IRC log started Mon Jul 26 00:00:01 1999 Ok, so I went about making a natural language parser for this multiuser natural language database thingy and I realized I've forgotten to write a natural language parser err forgotten how I just bumped my head really hard and now everything's blurry and I can't type too well must have dain bramage [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0726 Wow, sreaming static OH MY GOD! THERE'S PORN ON THE NET!!! WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN???? Just yesterday, when I put it all there. -:- malentiendo [villa@148.233.18.133] has joined #Tunes heh heh heh -:- malentiendo [villa@148.233.18.133] has left #Tunes [] ruiner: they are all just pictures of me in different poses. my hair color and breast size changes depending on how u look at me :) right now you're a bald fat man with lots of body hair with a dog cone on your head so you can't lick yourself ruiner: yer choice of porn is quite disturbing :) lol oh crap, i cant hold my eye lids open so i think that means i should goto sleep don't lecture me about YOUR pictures you have very large breasts for a man thank u they are natural too you're welcome....lets cuddle 12:10am hmmm.... you realize anybody who knows asm in about 20 years will be worth their weight in gold people are only interested in learning high level languages...when somebody needs new system software written they won't have as many people to choose from uhh they will write it in C like they do now C is kinda limited I'd like to see you write a boot loader in C I don't think it can be written in C actually Unfortunately, the value of someone who knows assembler is mediated by the ease with which assembler can be learned So I doubt they will be worth their weight in gold. Time for bed and im sure system commander can oops wrong: how old are u? 24 ruiner: take it It should be getting it I have seen far too many pictures like this one, given the fact that I have a bulk usenet decoder heh take what? that is an irc one ruiner: dcc send I'm thinking about making a porn site with ratings just so I can get people to filter out the spam for me i have lots of shit like that in my dcc directory I just have a private chat with " dcc" in it twice Hold on, I'll be back with xchat -:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (leaving) what the hell is this? just look its a gift from me -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes 12:20am wrong: u missed us, how nice :) What, can't I set up channels to autojoin in xchat? xchat blowx blows use bitchx The only problem I had with irssi was that it was not easy to tell which server was sending status messages or which net users who messaged me were on what was so special about that picture? ruiner: did u like it? its nothing incredible Heh I like that one :) Hold on, I'll be back in irssi, since xchat sucks. -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes just dont put it up on yer page cuz intel would probably have u thrown in jail Much better. I like that one intel snail mailed me all their patents/copyrights for that logo when i had a linux inside logo on my page a friend of mine had a professor who was really anti MS....and according to him, was nearly sued cuz of his web page DUDE! I've been looking for the linux inside logo i have it send send! i think this logo gets around intels crap they said it had to be 20% different 12:30am please send.... i did uhhhh.......no the linux inside one send send! dcc (SEND) ruiner === DCC Auto-closing idle dcc SEND to ruiner ummmm.....its not here....and I didn't accept anything thats cuz mirc blows more than xchat thanx! and yeah....mirc is kinda annoying sometimes ack! brb back hmm i wish kevin could release versions where everything that worked in previous versions worked in the new version for bochs qz...would it be possible to use an electromagnetic pulse device to disrupt a car next to you on the highway? yes hmmmmmm...... EM shockwave Yeah, definitely do you know how to make something like that? 12:40am yes i do The only problem being that it would probably affect your own car as well that would affect your car though would it not? u can shield yer car Yeah, shielding would be best Directing such a broadband pulse would be hard how? Though if you wanted to use high energy microwave instead of EMP, that would be much easier to deal with well a nuclear bomb would be the best way nuke is overkill... You need a bank of capacitors and an extremely fast switch, because the pulse has to be short to get the proper frequency spread A triggered spark gap of some kind might work Though it may need to be faster than that, like closer to the range of the switches used on nuclear detonators. But anyway, you feed the pulse through a coil that's similar to a tesla coil Mr_Wrong: he doesnt know electronics Oh. Anyway, the coil connects to a spherical electrode that sits in front of a parabolic dish. u would need to tell him radio shack model numbers or very detailed step-by-step instructions on howto make each part The problem is that the parabolic dish would need to be about 30 feet in diameter High-energy microwave would be more practical for automotive use. Use a capacitor bank, a triggered spark gap, and a high power magnetron or klystron tube. you never answered me about the searl effect generator You can store the energy in a resonator rather than a capacitor bank, but that's a bit harder. It sounds familiar, but I'd have to look it up And getting the energy out of the resonator requires a sudden change in either the pumping frequency or the resonant frequency of the resonator, and then it's hard to predict which direction the energy will go supposedly a perpetual motion machine..or overunity as they're called now 12:50am Well, given the effects they mention it has, if it works, it's extracting energy from quantum vaccuum fluctuations Which would result in strange gravitational effects The vaccuum triode amplifier looks a bit simpler though geez.... do you know of any ways to make ion engines more efficient? do an ionocraft search in yahoo Unfortunately, ionic propulsion requires the production of large amounts of electricity yeah And it's generally easier to drive an aircraft directly using the engine rather than generating electricity and producing ions. On the other hand, if you had a way of producing electricity more efficiently than you produced heat, then ionic propulsion would start to make sense how much did it say the searl effect generator put out? But given the fact that the scientific community at large is finally starting to accept quantum-mechanical explanations for general relativistic effects (inertia and gravity) it probably won't be long until we have gravitic drives I didn't bother to remember that The Floyd Sweet vacuum triode amplifier would be easier to build, I think never heard of it Similar in effect, but with no moving parts really....link? http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/vta.htm Any device that extracts energy from quantum vacuum fluctuations will have an effect on the surrounding gravitational field. 01:00am can you explain to me how a cathode ray tube works? Yeah. A hot filament "boils" off electrons, which are attracted toward the end of the tube by a high voltage electrical charge electrodes along the way focus and accelerate the beam, and magnetic coils direct it doesn't that create a lot of force towards one side? Actually, it can be directed by electrodes as well The electrons don't have that much mass. Besides, as the electrons don't leave the tube, there will be no reaction force. They hit the face of the tube, exciting the phosphors, and are then conducted back to the filament Actually, it's probably a cathode that's heated by a filament, as opposed to the filament itself giving off electrons Interesting how the site I gave you shows illustrations of what their device looked like, but no photos One would think that a site that was intended to show people how to make such a device would include photos he explained why he said there were some design flaws from where he got it from....the coil doesn't fit or something 01:10am Robert Adams and Joseph Newman both built electric motors that work on a very similar principle. i.e. pulsed EM fields. IMO it's how ball lightning works as well -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp30.lvdi.net]) i.e. the resonating field inside ball lightning actually gains energy from quantum vacuum fluctuations. I hope it's not possible to create a chain reaction that uses such principles. I would imagine not, otherwise the universe might not be here any ideas on how plasma can be kept in that state?.....it cools down too fast That was what I was saying about ball lightning That's exactly why there has been so much interest in ball lightning Of course, the self-sustaining properties of ball lightning may be as important as the fusion reaction they want it to support Typically, plasma is kept in that state by continually adding energy and confining the plasma using a magnetic field. However, ball lightning confines itself and even though it gives off lots of light and heat, can last a very long time I imagine it's some kind of standing wave But to create a standing wave you need some sort of cavity... that's the part I don't quite understand how long could plasma be kept in that state with just the magnetic field? doesn't plasma have a negative charge anyhow? Plasma has a positive charge. really....hmmmmm..... How long the plasma stays in that state depends on how quickly it is allowed to radiate energy Something a friend of mine once saw might give some insight into how ball lightning forms A lightning bolt broke up into a bunch of small balls of plasma that then drifted apart in their own directions So the standing wave was created along the lightning bolt, and somehow created self-sustaining antinodes. As if the standing wave itself were affecting the medium in which it was produced... which it obviously was, since the electricity will ionize the air and make it conductive, and the air must have become nonconductive at the nodes in the wave So suddenly the antinodes would have been confined to a plasma within a non-plasma night -:- SignOff liar: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) So perhaps there is just so much energy contained in ball lighning that it takes a while for all of it to radiate. 01:20am I think it's more than that though you're talking way over my head dude..I'm still trying to figure out how the searl effect generator works Ooh, I just found a very cool theory on how ball lightning works lol explain, in layman's terms, what ball lightning is and how it works -:- psylon [kirt@m44-pm3-01.spk.nwadv.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes It's balls of plasma that are sometimes created immediately following a lightning strike -:- psylon [kirt@m44-pm3-01.spk.nwadv.com] has left #tunes [] ok.... and since its plasma, its postively charged... how does it contain itself? Well, the theory I was just looking at says it's a soliton * Mr_Wrong/#tunes looks up a decent definition of soliton 01:30am Aah, a soliton is a wave packet that keeps its form due to the fact that the waves in the front of the packet are slowed down and the waves in the back are sped up, so they keep together k...I can understand that concept so as long as plasma is moving it'll stay together or....as long as its being pushed rather Well, it's basically a three dimensional vortex It doesn't have to be moving. Ball lightning also does things like pass through closed windows But it will avoid non-dielectric materials It has also been observed to chase people around eh? what speed? Running, but they can move much faster than that They don't actually touch the person usually, it's just that running will draw them around after you lol...smart bombs Though they have been known to explode, which is a good reason to be trying to run away lol 01:40am "don't run, that just makes it chase you....stand still and you'll be" BANG Wow, I'm finding a lot of scientific papers on the exact phenomenon the searle effect generator is supposed to use really....send me the links willya? my address is ruiner@centuryinter.net They're all listed on this one page http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/tesla/bllinspc.txt A quote: If synchronous ion-acoustic activity coheres the zero-point energy, there will be many more inventions forthcoming, and a new energy source will be recognized. zero-point energy is the quantum vacuum fluctuations This one also talks about cold fusion results possibly being extraction of energy from the ZPF rather than from fusion yikes..... I wish I'd taken physics You can do some really interesting stuff with pulsed EM fields. Ball lightning also has an internal structure.. it behaves similarly to a solid due to the coherence of the plasma Which is specifically what that quote was saying... "synchronous ion-acoustic activity".. that describes ball lightning very well BTW, you can make plasmoids in your microwave Not quite the same as ball lightning, but it is confined balls of plasma wait.....how? Put a candle in there and turn it on I thought plasma was created by sending an electric arc through gases Put it in with a mug of water though, so you don't break the microwave 01:50am There's a realvideo thingy of how to do it... hold on I'll give you the URL -:- Ghost [Rockman@tcv6-76.entelchile.net] has joined #Tunes http://thesync.com/etc/ The video says how to build jacobs ladders and then how to make plasmoids in the microwave err plasmodes The candle creates a carbon vapor, which is conductive... the microwaves create an arc within that vapor ahhh..... gotcha But anyway, I don't know if ball lightning extracts energy from the ZPF or what, but if it does, it does it in a way very similar to the other stuff we've been talking about: synchronous vibrations of charged particles create coherence in the zero-point field, which then can add energy to the reaction do you know how rail guns work? Yeah, they're pretty simple yeah... -:- Ghost [Rockman@tcv6-76.entelchile.net] has left #Tunes [] I'm surprised the US gov't hasn't messed with rail guns that shoot plasma They may have. I think the problem is that the plasma doesn't go very far. It would dissipate very quickly. On the other hand, if they could get it to behave like ball lightning, they could make it go very far. 02:00am But since the point is to transfer energy to the target, a solid projectile works equally well, since all the energy goes into kinetic energy, and with plasma some of the energy would have to go into producing the plasma anyway Ok, I'm going to bed now. Goodnight! night -:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (leaving) -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) 02:10am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp208.lvdi.net] has joined #Tunes poplog is now freely available at ftp://ftp.cs.bham.ac.uk/pub/dist/poplog/freepoplog.html 02:40am -:- smoke [smoke@13dyn54.delft.casema.net] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES | Geek Chicks | ruby | | network access w/ gawk | -:- Fare has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: http://www.tunes.org | a little excessive, no? :) 03:00am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us746.javanet.com] has joined #tunes Fare: here? 03:50am -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by bear.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server clarke.openprojects.net [refnum 1] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES -:- Your host is clarke.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 13 24:47 EDT -:- clarke.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(7)] 2% -:- [global users on irc(133)] 40% -:- [invisible users on irc(202)] 60% -:- [ircops on irc(18)] 5% -:- [total users on irc(335)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(31)] (avg. 10 users per server) -:- [total channels created(113)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !clarke.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 22 (21 clients) !clarke.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: http://www.tunes.org | http://netizen.com.au/~skud/articles/chick2.html | http://www.netlab.co.jp/ruby | http://burns.daimi.au.dk | http://home.t-online.de/home/Juergen.Kahrs/inet_toc.html | ftp://ftp.cs.bham.ac.uk/pub/dist/poplog/freepoplog.html -:- topic set by Fare [Mon Jul 26 02:54:34 1999] -:- [Users(#Tunes:10)] [ TUNES ] [ is ] [ hcf ] [ smoke ] [ eihrul ] [ Fare ] [@Tril ] [ Plundis ] [ Crimson ] [ abi ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.309 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[13dyn54.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@13dyn54.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes sl -:- jobezone [jobezone@lisas7-p67.telepac.pt] has joined #Tunes 05:20am -:- jobezone [jobezone@lisas7-p67.telepac.pt] has left #Tunes [] -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[13dyn54.delft.casema.net]) * Fare/#Tunes feels in the dumpzs -:- smkl [sami@CMXII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- fred [fred@seymour-ppp1.seymour.net.au] has joined #Tunes ls eh? he! sl? 09:20am -:- fred [fred@seymour-ppp1.seymour.net.au] has left #Tunes [] Fare: hello I wlould like to talk with you -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us826.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 10:30am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp208.lvdi.net]) * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 1 hrs 10 min 30 secs * Tril/#tunes bops Fare over the head with a telephone * Fare/#Tunes bops Tril back you freaked me out! I thought you were a salesman I *am* a salesman you sounded nervous , was that because of limited time to speak? I am trying to sell free reflective systems to people on the street heh I am nervous, stop. All the more when I'm wondering why I phoned someone on the other side of the planet. how much do they cost Tril: the problem is 1) they are free 2) they are not available yet so I was trying to define the type of objects yeah what kind of "type" is that? and I wanted to take a Union of all other types, so that if an object was in more than one, it would only occur once in the Objects type * Fare/#Tunes decides that implementing full Scheme looks like a bad idea. when I say type, it's just a set, that is used as domain or codomain of a function. how do u pipe only stderr in bash? especially if you capture a continuation that has to do the Right Thing(tm) with shared local variables... 2>& toto Fare: nope 2> toto man bash? pipe?? may have to create a fifo on the disk mknod p foo; something 2>foo something Implementing scheme is already done Fare: the man page doesnt help 11:50am you mean porting to Retro? Fare: dont u think i rtfm 1st b4 ask humans? ;) s/ask/asking/ * Fare/#Tunes once invented a horrible command language with pipe as a nightmare operating system to appear in a computer game. * Fare/#Tunes couldn't have invented something as horrible as unix, tho w/o mknod: ((foo >& 5) 2>&1 | toto) 5>&1 any way as I was saying, how do you calculate the union of some very large sets, without going through every member? How do you detect which members occur in both sets, without checking each one Tril: maybe have different union tactics for very large sets and "normal" ones. so far iv found: '3>&1 1>&2 2>&3 3>&- |' and '3>&2 2>&1 1>&3 |' nondeterminism both put stderr after stdout, which isnt what i want Tril: also, if you can predict the kind of unions, you may do optimized things hcf: what about what I propose? hcf: what about using mknod p ? checkin Tril: if you have sets as balanced trees, you can use usual balanced tree merge for logarithmic-time union. Fare: put stderr after stdout s/put/puts/ hcf: uh? Fare: I'm hoping to need your help soon to relate your Implementation ideas to my spec :) so you can implement them now trying the mknod thing Tril: I don't understand what exactly you're trying to do... I'm trying to decide whether objects can be in more than one type but you mean more generally? problems with scheme: since continuations may be captured and entered many time, you cannot ever pop them off the heap, or reuse them. you cannot use a stack, at least not for mutable variables. all mutable variables must be in special shared ref cells. hmm, I never programmed anything with continuations, but it seems like a better way to do C setjmp/longjmp, with a lot more features what's special about the cell? see a message by david madore this month on comp.lang.scheme for evil things you can do with non-linear continuations. ok, I thought you weren't doing a full scheme anyway you were going to do mini-scheme, and then HLL-, but how? HLL- or HLL isn't defined 12:00pm that's a problem which is what i'm trying to do define a HLL at first, I thought that Scheme would be a first goal that would allow to implement useful infrastructure w/o having to think but that's not the case. * Fare/#Tunes wonders how people did in T. never try not to think, it won't work * Fare/#Tunes wonders how people do in Poplog Tril: indeed although it should be possible to think about just one thing at a time if you concentrate! Tril: I'll add that to my cookie file! never try not to think, it won't work I had cookies last night * hcf/#tunes will also i'm sure someone said that before. Descartes? he didn't exactly say that. plus, he spoke french. ok. So, after thinking more in detail about the implementation and stuff, I think we should have a notion of linear object deep in the system. so the question is if an Integer 1 is the same as a Odd #1, or if they are distinct sets with some isomorphism lin..wha? as in linear logic i.e. objects that are promised to be only pointed-to once. dont know ll linear continuations are nice and allow for linear control (i.e. no duplication of thread w/o explicit copying) linear logic is quite an interesting thing. I think hbaker has a few articles with ll applied to system implementation. ll started as a proof-theoretic thing, and was soon reused by everyone in CS, since it easily models so many phenomena pure functional languages achieve side effects in a pure way by having the universe and other side-effected objects be represented as linear passed-around variables * Fare/#Tunes 's boss gave me interesting work to do basically the same as Tunes, but with my boss' particular point of view. the problem of having objects in more than one type (ex: 1 is both an integer and an odd number), is calculating the object's interface. If an object can be in an arbitrary number of types, there is no way to completely calculate the set of functions that operate on it. (or maybe it's different, and I'm viewing everything as Tunes-related :) what work Tril: the way I see it, objects are to be used with static intent. objects are static, sure cells contain references to objects, and cells can change Tril: that is, the intent should be associated to the static variable, not the dynamic object value. you're using "intent" as a formal term? what's it mean !devlin.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lackey.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo 12:10pm static , but perhaps partially decidable well, the "ontology" inside which you're manipulating the object; the CLOS-like "type hierarchy" in which the object is considered. * Fare/#Tunes just downloaded freepoplog 25MB worth of sources. so which way does it go? An object has some functions, because it is in a type, or it is in a type, because it has the functions? !sterling.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lackey.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo that is, if your source is considering a static variable x, and specifying foo x y, then the meaning of foo should be statically defined from the source only, without depending on the future binding of x. you may have dynamic behaviors, but only when specifically requesting it "static variable" is a contradiction well, technically :) well, have it "lexical", or whatever foo is a function? yeah x , y, arguments? yup what's an example of the wrong way, where the meaning of foo is dependent on the future binding of x? let's take a mathematical example. sqrt(x) is uniquely defined for positive real number x; it is multivalued (or arbitrarily chosen) for x complex. 12:20pm you'll typically want either the real number behavior or the complex one, statically. another example. You have an application that uses some type hierarchy. Someone imports your objects into his system, where the current type hierarchy is different. He doesn't want the application's behavior to change. hmm * Fare/#Tunes is more and more convinced that dynamic binding is evil, and that people really want static binding except for a few user-visible bindings, and for dynamic reflection (and user-modification) of previous static bindings. i agree with that, I think. How does it relate to the question of objects being in multiple types ? "completely dynamic" is particularly evil, since it ultimately means you're dependent on the weather around the computer on which the program happens to run Tril: that behavioral types are not to be associated to runtime values, but to lexical expressions. * Fare/#Tunes sells reflective systems. * Fare/#Tunes wonders what kind of lisp dialect to implement... implement my spec gimme the spec almost ok, so we need a concept of thread, or of dynamic activity. let me finish paragraph oh, i didn't put that in yet, but I have it we should favor bounded-resource activities, and encourage meta-programming to transform programs into such activities. 12:30pm bounded-resource activities will have manual access to persistence et al, although this access can have been metaprogrammed from a high-level representation coarse-grained bounded-resource activities can be managed with reference-listing instead of reference-tracking. it's not quite a spec, but go read http://tunes.org/~dem/tunes/spec/ at least it is longer than before :) Tril: ok 12:40pm i guess you won't read it right now tell me about it sometime. is it readable right now? yup. it's online and ready for flames I put sgml and html there maybe i'll make an index.html * Fare/#Tunes goes in ~dem/tunes/spec/ Tril: now one can't see 'old' i deleted old it's just the same as the first page oh 01:00pm old was the basic concepts section, I think everyone already read it typo in the subtype section should I redownload?