IRC log started Fri Jul 2 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0702 -:- smoke [smoke@7dyn204.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hi -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us117.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 04:20am -:- binEng [Anders@dialup43-4-14.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- binEng_ [Anders@dialup208-3-46.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup43-4-14.swipnet.se]) -:- binEng_ is now known as binEng -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- smkl [sami@MCCXCII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us117.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us310.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- binEng [Anders@dialup210-2-27.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.206] has joined #Tunes Shalom1 s/1/!/; So, what do you guys think of this whole Yahoo BS? yahoo? Yes, Yahoo's GeoCities terms of service nonsense -:- rain [rain@210.117.148.110] has joined #Tunes Hi~ Hi hello, Kaufmann 09:10am never heard about that ... smkl: dont u read /.? i check it for interesting topics Goes like this: Yahoo! {buys|merges with} Geocities; Yahoo! creates terms of service for Geocities homepage owners which basically says that they have all rights to whatever you put on their server; when people try to take their stuff out of Geocities, Yahoo! doesn't let them do it until they click on a button accepting the aforementioned terms of service. Extorsion at its best. Say I move in to a new apartment; I go out to buy dairy products, and when I come back, the landlord has posted a note on my door which says that he can do whatever he wants to my furniture, including selling it, and that the act of opening the door in order to move out implies that I agree with that note. well, you should read the contracts carefully NONONONONONONONO!!! The original Geocities homesteading terms of services mentioned nothing of the sort! then that should be illegal YES! hum I forgot to tell you: by the mere act of entering #tunes, you agree to sell you soul to me. 09:20am * hcf/#tunes passes his soul over Of course not, because I also forgot to tell you that by the mere act of talking to me, you agree to sell YOUR soul to ME! Hah! So there! Jesus freaking Christ. * binEng/#tunes wonders what he should do with his soul i will found a bank that takes the money and then i'll use the money as if it was mine Kaufman: oops. Hum. Is it acceptable if I send you my soul by air-mail, or must it be FedEx? Kaufmann: What do you do with all souls anyway? -:- change_m1 [user4586@btstts04c26.nbnet.nb.ca] has joined #Tunes Hi out there hello change_m1 -:- change_m1 [user4586@btstts04c26.nbnet.nb.ca] has left #Tunes [] I will... uh... oh yes, I will use the souls of undead computer nerds to turn the Earth into a new Outworl-- oh no, wait, that's Mortal Kombat. 09:30am hmm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us310.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us310.javanet.com] has joined #tunes Fare, please send it via UPS. -:- SignOff rain: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) Kaufman: oops, I already sold my soul to the devil, and thus cannot give it to you anymore! Oh, I forgot. I took over Lucifer Corp. last week. So your soul belongs to me nonetheless. * binEng/#tunes has copyrighted (c) his soul. Twice. * Kaufmann/#Tunes puts his soul under the GPL. Kaufmann: Hope that someone will debug you? ;) 09:40am Actually, I'm doing it just to get complimented by RMS BTW, is that a verb? "To compliment"? sounds like it "To compliment" does NOT sound like "it"! uh * binEng/#tunes has a bug in his script :( What's wrong? if (not g) or (g == '\012'): NameError: string 09:50am That's Python, btw I was just about to ask you :) * binEng/#tunes can't understand this... everything seems to be in order -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) Speaking of scripts, I'm working on my new sigmaker Anyone care to see it? (Maybe beta-test it?) sigmaker? It's a Perl script that takes a file full of signatures (delimited by lines with '-----') and randomly spews one out. Quite handy for email. Sorta like fortune. 10:00am Kaufmann: if like fortune, then use '%%' as delimiter Well, what the heck, I'm just going to add another variable... (and thus sigmaker.pl becomes bloatware :]) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[200.224.105.206]) Kaufman: I use fortune for that Kaufman: I translate my collection of sigs in fortune format, and can then query it with fortune hcf: ain't it rather just %\n? * hcf/#tunes thot it was %%\n hcf: yesterday I wondered if you could help find something, but I don't remember what should look in the irclog... 10:10am -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.234] has joined #Tunes damn -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) 10:20am Anyway... Is "Art of the Meta-Object Protocol" a good book? >>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.234] requested PING 930936414 from #Tunes yup Good, because I just ordered it. 10:30am -:- iepos [magister@ns4.tecinfo.net] has joined #TUNES fare? fare is sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) -:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Leaving) 10:40am -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[200.224.105.234]) -:- Kaufmann` [Kaufmann@200.224.105.213] has joined #Tunes -:- Kaufmann` is now known as Kaufmann Hey, cool! 10:50am -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1030.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[200.224.105.213]) -:- binEng [Anders@dialup209-1-6.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.198] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup209-1-6.swipnet.se]) -:- binEng [Anders@dialup44-3-2.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes Gotta go now.' -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein) -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes 11:30am -:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ Tril!!! * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 22 hrs 59 min 58 secs a line of trees through france, huh? Fare: did u find what u wanted me to seek? hullo Tril, I'd need to have a word with you ... hcf: no Have you looked at the scripts for tpp? Beh thought they could be used for Tunes as well. no, what do they do? You can create and update pages. The html is generated from templates. hmm ...and changes are logged and old versions backed up. with the current system also, html is generated from templates... and changes are logged and old version backed up I didn't know and you can modify the templates with XEmacs... and this is different from Zope in that... it was just written so Zope is about 100 times more advanced? hcf: I wonder if an article, somewhere, relates generalization to lambda-lifti ng? Fare: I thought of getting PLOB yesterday but saw it was restricted distribution is it? rats! because of its database being based off of a proprietarey one from Napier88 Tril: well, RScheme has a free software equivalent problem is, CL-HTTP doesn't run on RScheme... hcf did you look at netomat yet? abi netomat is a nonlinear browser at http://www.netomat.net/ on /. today 11:40am fare and plob only runs on allegro and harlequin (the server that is. the client runs on others) double ouch Tril: netomat? netomat is a nonlinear browser at http://www.netomat.net/ hcf see /. http://slashdot.org/articles/99/07/02/1632233.shtml i think netomat.net is slashdotted Yup, it is nonlinear is also a buzzword I need a page on buzzword-oriented programming hcf, get me a persistent hyperprogramming system that is free or GPL How do you update tunes' pages? hcf: can you find anything on the relationship between lambda-lifting and logical generalization? (GOOD LUCK) Tril: Tunes? it has been said that Tunes is http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated Fare: maybe one that is further developed? instead of search, hack:! * Fare/#Tunes hidezs binEng: you use CVS. fare, no , it's a good idea binEng: collaboration.html#CVS k what's a good idea? if you want access to change our pages, just ask to be added to the tunes UNIX group on bespin Fare: hacking Tril: do you have to be in that group to edit pages? or maybe finishing up my design first binEng: if you want the changes to be effective. obviously you can make your own personal changes without being in the group personal changes? do they count? where are *that* stored? binEng: you can get a copy of the pages as anonymous but you can't then write any edits back yuk, command line interface binEng: CVS works as a repository. To edit things, you "check out" a copy of the files you want to edit for your own use. Then after changing them, you "check in" the changes. You can also run "update" to update your local copy if anyone else has made a change. Where's a meta-site about free software employment? binEng: there are a few gui ones slashdot.org/jobs.html? 11:50am shtml ok maybe not a meta site How is CVS related to Zope? CVS *is* a version management system. Zope includes a primitive version management system of its own, that is imcompoatible with CVS. Our web setup is capable of generating html from templates using an arbitrary program invoked by 'make' zope generates html from its own special template format that allows acess to Zope objects basically zope generates pages from templates on every web access, but our makefile setup does it once a day or so but... which one do you use, then? www.tunes.org/ uses CVS and make. zope.tunes.org, which is not ready yet, but i am working on, uses Zope. so you will use Zop in the end? I don't know. It should be possible to use both, by adding postgresql database reading into the makefile process. Tril: whats hyperprogramming? hyperprogramming is where you make programs by connecting nodes in a persistent database to represent data or code, instead of using a text-based language 12:00pm -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-120.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hi, water hi all tril! what's the topic? i think the topic is Free Reflective Computing System abi: shush persistent hyperprogramming cool i've read way too much of univ of st andrews' papers 12:10pm Tril: i assume uv read the c.l.visual faq, right? yeah -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-92.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <_water> bleh i looked at all the links in it, too, and nothing was freely available <_water> well, the pam spec is free <_water> i mean, it's published water i mean links in comp.lang.visual faq which you missed while you were gone <_water> ok, so that's not much to work with what is pam <_water> oh <_water> persistent abstract machine -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-120.tscnet.net]) -:- _water is now known as water water: have you the URL for the precise paper? is it reflective? * binEng/#tunes is off for a while -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) reflective? not really bye bin I know the british guys have investigated reflection albeit a quick&dirty kind thereof (string evaluation) fare: just check the st andrews cs group site water: it's huge! fare: really? i'll check on it fare: it has a search engine for papers www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk? http://www-ppg.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/Publications/PDF/thesis.dm.pdf http://www-ppg.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/Publications/PDF/pam.manual.pdf those are the pam specs there's also the pbam, which is a derivative what's the b in pbam? pb is processbase use the ...Publications/ address to search 12:20pm too many theses to read! My pile of "to read" is already meters high! tell me about it of course, i don't print them i recommend pbam over pam, by the way better architecture and high-level features rats! You're part of an international plot to keep me busy reading instead of writing Tunes! hehe i've read most of it i can condense it for you that would be great there are a few papers among those with actually interesting results hold on, i'll get addresses Tril: will u be writing a review entyr for Napier88? and a glos entry for hyper-programming what are the relationships between FIDE and PPG? fare: what? http://www-ppg.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/Publications/PDF/thesis.qc.pdf "delivering the benefits of persistence to sys construction and execution " http://www-ppg.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/Publications/PDF/thesis.gk.pdf what is "Manifest Pickup" in UPS tracking? "reflection and hyperprogramming in persistent programming systems" They are the ones doing PJama, aren't they? fare: yes http://www-ppg.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/Publications/PDF/thesis.rc.pdf help! "Types and Polymorphism in Persistent Programming Systems" * Fare/#Tunes is drowning in these to read! hehe * water/#tunes 's read em all :P we need a papers section for review "read" them, over "glimpsed" over them? water: will you do it? i read almost all of them last year _read_ 12:30pm they're not earth-shaking papers here's what quote showed up at the bottom of /. today, for water: One is not superior merely because one sees the world as odious. -- Chateaubriand (1768-1848) hehe what do you want me to say, tril? "touche"? Chateaubriand's first name was Francois-Rene, too! hehe Or is it me first-named after him? hum. fare: you should definitely read this next one, but i don't know what the url is "partial evaluator as a compiler for reflective languages" their example lang is black, which is a sheme s/sheme/scheme I've heard about it. Got a URL? hmm. univ of tokyo TR95-10 that's all i've got at the moment ok, thanks on the other hand, perhaps it's not in my interest to encourage fare to improve scheme :) why not? FARE know of a search engine for music based on tune? So I can sing a tune into the microphone and it tells me the song? this was in the cddb example was it not? i need to use one now :) other choice is to record the song and send it to people to see if they recognize it -:- tmf [s720@mygg.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes what group? what genre? Tril: tell me the tunes in ABCD notation... if I could... -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (smkl has no reason) * Fare/#Tunes has hacked a perl script to play tunes on the linux console... ~fare/bin/musik.pl Is it possible to safely allow the world to read my CVS repository? semi-safely what's "semi"? hehe -:- smkl [sami@MCCXCII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes tmf! you must add the user 'guest' to the group owning the directory in the repository. And then trust CVS to only allow the anonymous user to create a lock in the directory, not do any check ins (done by not putting the anonymous user in CVSROOT/writers, but only in CVSROOT/readers) hi tmf: any new word on tml? 12:40pm tmf: got a web page yet? water, my uni trashed it, and I've quit uni which user 'guest' acutally is depends on the user anonymous is mapped to in CVSROOT/passwd. tmf: oh sorry no web page yet, possible not in a while hmm tmf: not even on tunes.org/~tmf ? what about on bespin? after all, we accepted water in, so we can accept you, too! ;-> I don't feel that I have anything to say basically hey! tmf: did you contact people doing rewriting logic? fareL :P You could candidate there... fare got a C=64 emulator? with working sound? i'll send you a rom , you tell me what the title screen music is I've stopped trying to explain stuff. Hopefully, though, I will get about creating it, but having it classified as useless makes it kind of hard. i'd like a midi of it how did it get classified as useless? i hope that's not from what i said Tril: no, there's VICE, but I'vee not installed it. I'm an Apple ][ kind of guy know any programs to record DirectSound to a file fare, no, the prof. I presented it to. * Fare/#Tunes apt-get install vice thanks, fare :) maybe you can explain me how to get it working, tho I wouldn't know where to start. Fare: no, i haven't used it but I might know where to get the firmware roms required piracy! * Fare/#Tunes calls the SPA I don't know where people ( or me, as it seems ) fall off. Lack of feedback, I guess. saddam hussein milosevic bombing terrorist iran contra drugs arms deal -:- binEng [Anders@dialup210-4-16.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes * Fare/#Tunes suspects being a FBI infiltrated informant 12:50pm s/being/binEng being/ hehe oh? how much do you want to be convinced I'm not? oh? how much do you want, to be convinced I'm not? the more you try to convince me you're not, the more I'll suspect you... but if you pay me $1M, I'm ready to believe you're not.... you got a deal * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] I think I'll act is if I knew nothing of CVS or Zope and just continue scripting right on -:- SignOff tmf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tmf[mygg.ii.uib.no]) Fare, water: got this? http://web.yl.is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/pl/meta.html -:- tmf [s720@mygg.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes definitely thanks that's the url for that paper wow. i have 200 bookmarks only? hehe * hcf/#tunes lost count @ ~400 time to start your own /. or yahoo or something well, most are two clicks away from the papers i like /me got around 2000 bookmarks 01:00pm that's useless, though not including those already in Review/ exactly ah-ha! found it what? this one's for you, Fare: http://www-ppg.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/Publications/PDF/compilers.persistence.pdf don't get any more from st andrews "constructing compilers in a persistent environment" not a big paper, but it has some interesting ideas who wants to code some Scheme? hehe maybe lambda but not scheme lambda? what language is that? You mean, Haskell or something? hehe lambda calculus as in lambda-foo.scm ? yes well... * water/#tunes hates identifiers 01:10pm i should let you know that i don't code without a really good reason any more people who code just to code should be shot :) not really, but... water: I don't understand your latest message on the list ukernel? i'm suggesting including a kernel aspect to code giving every process kernel-level ability to manage resource management "you still disagree" with whom/what? disagree that there "is no such thing" as a no-nernel system are you saying that kernel-less is impossible? the opposite oh, ok. that's why i came up with that example idea 01:20pm Fare, water: why u so quiet umm just sort of looking at stuff aop, actually 01:40pm * Fare/#Tunes tries to find the tune Tril handed him I would have said it's some Grieg, but I can't find the tune maybe it's some film music? 01:50pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1030.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1030.javanet.com] has joined #tunes wb hcf: anything on lambda-lifting and logical generalization rule? Fare: did u need something soon? i was working on tril's request 1st ok what was his request, btw? hcf, get me a persistent hyperprogramming system that is free or GPL hehe good luck -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250094.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey hey, tcn 02:00pm -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) tcn!! hey tcn hey fare how are ya brian? hum. I've been looking at MIT Scheme implementation what about it? getting inspiration I want to choose correct conventions for my implementation -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1030.javanet.com]) great (sarcasm) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-239-225.s479.tnt2.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes correct conventions? such as? putting the right thing in the right registerss; having an efficient memory model, allowing for efficient gc blah -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1030.javanet.com] has joined #tunes low-level stuff yup i.e. deciding the back-end of my initial compiler why re-inventing wheels? 02:10pm btw, i've looked at the same thing because I need a free implementation that I can adapt for a reflective system I might try to take one as is, is that what you say? -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[209-122-239-225.s479.tnt2.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]) or adapt it i.e. hack the hell out of it most of them are very difficult to adapt MIT-Scheme looks very difficult to transform into something persistent hmm so are SCM-based stuff maybe Scheme48 things. what's your model of persistency? RScheme has persistence, but depends all too much on C. And it's not persistence of code. right 1) objects live in zones 2) zones are metaobjects 3) we maintain a well-founded (non-circular) dependency graph of metaobjects, so as to be able to reconstrut the universe from its dump dependency graph? (and also to be able to reason soundly about the semantics of objects) uhh hmm it's much like "reflective towers", only 1) it's heterogeneous and 2) it's dynamic tell more, please -:- NetSplit: king.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [02:18pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [king.openprojects.net] 02:20pm in "reflective towers", you have a static hierarchy of mostly-identical metasystems ok in tunes, you have a dynamic category of metasystems ok got it with the requirement that the initial object of this category be the available hardware. a single object?