IRC log started Sun Jun 13 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0613
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-110.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us944.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<water> hi hcf
<hcf> lo water
<hcf> abi: tunes?
<abi> it has been said that tunes is http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers
<hcf> that last part, i added
<water> oh
<hcf> u said it, but not in a way abi would pick up
<water> ok
<water> thanks for clearing it up :)
<hcf> np ;)
<water> what's up?
<hcf> not much
<hcf> we should have a tunes quotes file
<hcf> abi cant hold em all
<water> hmm maybe
03:30am
<hcf> how goes the bespin papers archive?
<water> fare's got a new one
<water> my paper will become several smaller ones soon
<hcf> i'm talking about the collection of papers u/tril mentioned setting up on bespin
<water> oh
<water> i'm not sure about the copyright stuff
<water> it would also take about 20 megs just for my own arrow paper references.
03:40am
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-110.tscnet.net])
-:- binEng [Anders@dialup45-2-52.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-218.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System (www.tunes.org) || Essence OS (http://www.essenceos.net)
<water> hi hcf
<hcf> lo
<water> does essence need a review?
-:- Pauldoo [Pauldoo@dunvegan1.demon.co.uk] has joined #tunes
<water> hi paul
<Pauldoo> yo
<Pauldoo> it's broing in #pp, bin left...
<water> bin just left, yes
<Pauldoo> hehe
<Pauldoo> so anyone bored enough for a game of battle ships?
<water> hcf: review for essence (could you write one or shall i)?
05:40am
<hcf> water: "feel free" to do one
<water> hcf ok
<Pauldoo> hcf = ?
<Pauldoo> oh, your nick...
<Pauldoo> hehe, I thought it was some programming term or something...
<hcf> Pauldoo: in certain contexts it is a programming term
<Pauldoo> hehe, like?  highly crap file?
<hcf> 'halt and catch fire' - mythical opcode, and 'highest common denominator'
<water> btw, i'm uploading some useful doc's for tunes background reading to the web site.
<Pauldoo> denominator
<hcf> water: why u poppin' into the channels im in?
<water> hcf: looking for conversation
<hcf> oops, s/denominator/factor/
<water> about anything, really
<Pauldoo> hmm...  lame excuse
<water> well, it's the truth - i'm pretty bored right now
<Pauldoo> same here
05:50am
<hcf> water: whatcha think of priority levels for tunes todo items?
<water> hcf: good idea, but the todo list has to be updated, too.
<water> hcf: for instance, i'm waiting to upload a bunch of reviews for papers
<water> also languages and os's.
<water> when tril has the db server ready, i'll be able to do that
<water> hcf: does essence have its web site ready at all?
<hcf> ready?
<hcf> thers a bunch of poop on it
<hcf> a faq, etc
<hcf> no bins yet
<water> yes, i've seen it
<water> what about sources?
<water> or technical goals?
<water> (although there are papers on previous projects...)
<hcf> what is it w/ ppl
<water> hcf: with me?
<hcf> every project seems to have a faq about ther license nowadays
<water> oh
<water> the different licenses for open source are getting confusing
<hcf> brb
<water> ok
<Pauldoo> I just put:
<Pauldoo> "Do what you want, nothing to do with me"
<water> :)
06:00am
<hcf> water: im not a reviewer, i just find links (hopefully relevant)
<hcf> for example, i found the essenceos link in a post to alt.os.development
<hcf> which not many tunesers read
<water> ok
<water> thanks, then
<hcf> i also search for things if ppl need em, need anything?
<water> the project doesn't have anything public yet, but is an interesting idea
<water> um. the "home page" of abstract interpretation?
<water> ok. maybe cs theory is too arcane to search for
<hcf> "home page" as in inventor of it?
<hcf> s/in/home page of the /
<water> well, just a url or site with lots of pointers on it
<hcf> ok
<water> anyway, i'm at least going to read the papers on previous projects related to EssenceOS
<hcf> water: r u aware of http://www.cs.indiana.edu:800/cstr/search ?
<water> i've used it before, but not for this search. i'll try it, thanks.
06:10am
* water/#tunes 's personal favorite are the LANL archives' search engine.
<water> is
<hcf> whats the url for it?
<water> http://xxx.lanl.gov/
<water> it's only real fault is not indexing enough papers, and being subjugated to the ACM
-:- Pauldoo [Pauldoo@dunvegan1.demon.co.uk] has left #tunes []
<hcf> water: do u have cousot's paper(s) on abs.inp. ?
<water> he wrote one on that?
<water> maybe
<water> i'll look
<hcf> ... a twenty-years history since the seminal paper by Cousot was published
06:20am
<water> yep. i got that one.
<water> jan, 1977
<hcf> so abs inp is in the supercompilation category?
<water> i'm not sure. i guess so.
<hcf> related at least
<water> yes. definitely
<hcf> http://inet.keldysh.ru/dpt_16/klimov/ScpJ/HistoryAndRelatedWork.htm
<hcf> no links to papers but /may/ be helpful
<water> ok
<hcf> also, a bad job of tex to html
* water/#tunes chuckles
<water> they may as well have posted straight tex.
<hcf> some paper urls, http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~schmidt/group.survey.html
<water> cool
<water> very cool!
06:30am
<hcf> abs inp seems to be quite a large topic, do u want anything specific in the category?
<water> not sure. i didn't really know it was that large
<hcf> "abstract interpretation" and cousot -> 220 hits
<water> wow. that's better than my attempts.
* hcf/#tunes was thinking a proper collection of pointers would include such for cousot
<water> yes
<hcf> know any other "proper" authors?
<water> proper? like what?
<water> famous researchers?
<hcf> as in, required reading for the topic
<water> oh
<water> jmc
<water> abi jmc?
<abi> somebody said jmc was at http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/
<water> he's just for ai, though
<hcf> http://www.fcit.monash.edu.au/research/publications/papers/papers.html
<hcf> http://www.diku.dk/students/turtle/bibliography.html
<water> ok
<hcf> <- results of "abstract interpretation" and cousot and mccarthy
<water> well, i've got all the jmc that i can take
<hcf> High Integrity Compilation. Bibliography @ http://public.logica.com/~stepneys/bib/ss/hic/bib.htm 
06:40am
<hcf> http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~harald/papers.html
<hcf> http://compiler.kaist.ac.kr/~ocu/re.html
<hcf> Patrick Cousot and Radhia Cousot did the original abs inp stuff, but...
<hcf> http://ultralix.polytechnique.fr/~radhia/LOMAPS_abstracts.html access is forbidden
<water> yeah, it happens with ACM docs, too
<hcf> ahhah!
-:- Pauldoo [Pauldoo@dunvegan1.demon.co.uk] has joined #tunes
-:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us307.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<Pauldoo> I'm bored again, hi
<water> hi paul
<hcf_> as i was saying, ahhah!
<hcf_> Some Pointers Related to Abstract Interpretation @ http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~corsini/people.html
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us944.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer)
<water> cool
<Pauldoo> anyone for a game of battle ships?
-:- hcf_ is now known as hcf
06:50am
<water> wow. that page seems to cover everything possible.
<hcf> brb
<hcf> back
<Pauldoo> this tunes project seems a bit optimistic...
<water> indeed
<hcf> Pauldoo: would u prefer something mundane?
<water> fare and tril and i are making some progress on those, though
<Pauldoo> no, I'm bored.  I'm trying to spark off a conversation.... :)
<water> at least we're trying
<water> pauldoo: got a favorite software environment?
<Pauldoo> I would help, but I suppose programming in VC kinda defeats the point
<hcf> water: what are FPGAs?
<water> field-programmable gate arrays:
<Pauldoo> water, DJGPP at the moment, but I'm moving to VC
<water> re-configurable logic circuits as a microporcessor architecture
<water> DPGA's = dynamic ...
<Pauldoo> kewl
<Pauldoo> so you could change the processors circuits to be optimized for each task?
<water> yes
<water> it works at the bit-level, too.
<Pauldoo> bloody hell, sounds magic
<Pauldoo> and a bit dangerous if it crashes and the chip is left optimized for sommat else
<water> i don't know what the state of the art on it is, but you can buy them
<water> well, i think that it returns to a default "cold" state
<Pauldoo> ahhh 8086 mode?
<hcf> hmm, reflective at chip level
<Pauldoo> hehe
<water> maybe the rom or microcode works that
<Pauldoo> sounds kewl though..
<Pauldoo> can they change circuits quickly?
07:00am
<water> it's not a direct issue for me, because all i have to do is show dynamic re-modellability for the arrow system
<water> paul: no idea
<Pauldoo> arrow system?
<abi> i think arrow system is an information system that will reflect on itself.  most likely, it will have no kernel.
<water> it must have some safety features for that
* Pauldoo/#tunes is completely lost...
<water> paul: it's my personal project that is related to tunes.
<Pauldoo> ahh..
<water> actually, it should do a little more than tunes
<water> but let's not discuss that
<hcf> water: r u aware of Similix?
<water> hcf: no, what is it?
<hcf> Similix (http://www.diku.dk/topps/activities/similix.html) is an autoprojector (self-applicable partial evaluator) for a large higher-order subset of Scheme.
<water> wow.
<Pauldoo> BLOODY HELL, wtf does that mean?
<hcf> lol
* water/#tunes understands
* Pauldoo/#tunes thinks water is lying
<Pauldoo> hehe
<hcf> related, http://www.diku.dk/topps/Research.html
-:- Pauldoo_ [Pauldoo@dunvegan1.demon.co.uk] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Pauldoo: #TUNES (Read error to Pauldoo[dunvegan1.demon.co.uk]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- Pauldoo_ is now known as Pauldoo
<water> wb
<Pauldoo> wb?
<abi> it has been said that wb is welcome back
<Pauldoo> ahh
<Pauldoo> abi is abot?
<hcf> Pauldoo: infobot
* hcf/#tunes is an infohuman
* Pauldoo/#tunes is a know-nothing-human
07:10am
* water/#tunes is definitely not a human
<Pauldoo> so how old r u vetran programmers?  LOL
<water> hehe. 21
<Pauldoo> oh, yeah, I asked u yesterday...
* water/#tunes has been programming since he was five.
<Pauldoo> water, u know that big d/l I was doin?  it was the wrong bloody file
<water> what were you downloading?
* Pauldoo/#tunes has been programming since 5 too...
<Pauldoo> DX 6.1 SDK
<water> oh yeah
<Pauldoo> 1hr 20 left
<hcf> water: abs inp seems covered, whats next?
<water> yes, it definitely does.
* water/#tunes shrugs.
<Pauldoo> how old r u hcf?
<hcf> Pauldoo: 24
<Pauldoo> ancient!!!
<hcf> quite
<Pauldoo> you got ur pension yet?
<Pauldoo> hehe
<hcf> water: anything that u havnt been able to find on the net?
<water> hcf: hmm. how about "arrow logic"
<water> or "dynamic logic"
<water> they don't seem to have web-related resources
<hcf> k, know any relevant terms/authors?
<water> Johan van Benthem, Yde Venema, ...
<water> modal logic, CSLI
<hcf> whats CSLI?
07:20am
<water> center for the study of language and information
<water> it's at stanford
-:- SignOff Pauldoo: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Pauldoo[dunvegan1.demon.co.uk])
<water> also, folli : the european association for logic, language, and information
<water> also, Maarten Marx. that should be enough.
<hcf> k, i'l see what i can find
<water> thanks :)
<hcf> u have found nothing so far?
-:- smkl [sami@MLXXVII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes
<hcf> or near nothing
<water> i have prof's email addresses, mostly
<water> hi smkl
<water> i've spoken with them briefly
<water> and searched the web
<smkl> hello water
<water> but no results. :(
<hcf> 'http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=aq&text=yes&kl=en&r=&act=search&q=%22arrow+logic%22&d0=&d1='
<water> ok
<hcf> 62 hits
<water> i must really suck at finding good search sites
<hcf> should the arrow logic pages cover dynamic logic too?
<water> sort of.
<water> damn!
<water> very little is electronically available!
<water> wait, i found some
<hcf> do u already have Johan van Benthem, Yde Venema, Maarten Marx 's papers?
<water> no
07:30am
<water> it appears that i have to e-mail the publication server
<water> this may cost me
<water> but i'm still looking
<water> ok. their ftp server has some useful papers for free.
<water> thanks again :)
<hcf> no prob, just trying to be useful
<hcf> 'http://ink.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=%22arrow+logic%22&hc=0&hs=0'
* water/#tunes realizes his search problem
<hcf> which is?
<water> i never put quotes around a phrase
<hcf> just seems natural to me
<water> these papers are really hard to get.
<hcf> some r gettable tho right?
<water> i think so, but there are many which are missing, i.e. not free
07:40am
<hcf> interest group in pure and applied logics (igpl)
<hcf> that johan fellow is on this groups editorial board
<water> it makes sense
<hcf> but ... their web and ftp sites arent available
<hcf> s/available/accessable
<hcf> mentioned on http://www-rocq.inria.fr/verso/lics/newsletters/27.html
<water> hmm
<hcf> their ftp doesnt allow anon
<water> bleh
<hcf> stuff like that just makes me wanna go postal
<water> maybe there's no membership costs
<hcf> 'http://ftpsearch.lycos.com/cgi-bin/search?form=advanced&query=benthem&doit=Search&type=Case+insensitive+multiple+substrings+search&hits=15&matches=&hitsprmatch=&limdom=&limpath=&limsize1=&limsize2=&limtime1=&limtime2=&f1=Count&f2=Mode&f3=Size&f4=Date&f5=Host&f6=Path&header=none&sort=none&trlen=20'
<water> there's an e-mail for igpl. i'll apply to them.
<hcf> note, i give the full urls to make sure u get the same results as me
<hcf> also, i check at the links to prevent hitting 404s
<hcf> s/at/
<hcf> oh wait
<hcf> http://www.mpi-sb.mpg.de/igpl/Bulletin/ does connect
<hcf> just takes a long time
<water> ok
07:50am
<hcf> http://www.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/journals/IGPL/index.html <-- faster host
<water> ok
<water> this rocks!
* water/#tunes wonders if he should have his head examined for liking cs research repositories so much.
<hcf> http://turing.wins.uva.nl/~mdr/Publications/modal-logic.html
<water> this is going to help me immensely!
* water/#tunes contemplates moving his entire library onto his notebook computer.
08:00am
<hcf> http://turing.wins.uva.nl/~mdr/index.html
<hcf> http://www.illc.uva.nl/
<water> stop! :)
<hcf> heh
* water/#tunes is full of information
<water> i've got enough pointers to support Arrow for the next several months.
<water> that's plenty for me.
<water> is there anything i can do for you?
<water> :)
<hcf> not that i can think of atm
<water> i guess that i should just work on my papers
* water/#tunes needs to overhaul his draft.
<hcf> ur progress (w/ the assistance from me w/ pointers) will be thanks enough
<water> ok
<hcf> 1 more, http://turing.wins.uva.nl/~marx/
08:10am
<water> ok
<hcf> brb
08:20am
<hcf> back
* water/#tunes is downloading papers
08:40am
<water> wow. such good research material for tunes.
<hcf> "arrow logic" got only 3 hits on dejanews
<water> hmm
<water> what are they?
<hcf> 99/04/26  Minds and Machines (Vol. 9 N fr.sci.philo  Serge Rouveyrol,  98/04/29  CUNY Mathematics Seminars    nyc.seminars  Robert Shalla,  97/08/30  Notice from JSSST 97/09 #7/1 fj.org.jssst  Takashi Hattori
<water> any url's or news-related pointers?
08:50am
<hcf> "Minds and Machines", seemingly a journal, General Articles: - Event, State, and Process in Arrow Logic Tojo, Satoshi
<hcf> Seminar in Application of Logic: Arrow logic and its neighbors, Natasha Kurtonina, U.Penn.
<hcf> the 3rd is in something, tex-like
<hcf> "The Imperfect Information Flow of Agents Communication in Arrow Logic"
<water> ok
<water> how do i look at that?
* water/#tunes slaps himself
<water> nevermind
<hcf> look at what?
<water> hcf: just ignore that question
<hcf> its not tex-like, its charset=ISO-2022-JP
<water> oh
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-220-61.s315.tnt5.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<water> hi atg
<AlonzoTG> om
* water/#tunes slaps AlonzoTG around a bit with a large trout
<hcf> actually, its tex source w/ japanese language
<hcf> such a lovely combo ;)
<water> wow
<hcf> 'http://x45.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=269033231.7&CONTEXT=929288821.1166737447&hitnum=2'
09:00am
<water> i can't do much with that, unfortunately, except maybe compile it into Japanese ps. :)
<hcf> AlonzoTG: is ur prototype done yet? ;)
09:10am
<AlonzoTG> I'd wish
-:- iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes
09:20am
<water> hi storm
<water> brb all.
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-tnt-218.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
09:30am
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-105.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<AlonzoTG> why do these "core" files keep appearing wherever I start Linuks' file manager?
10:00am
<iStormy> must be buggy
-:- Dry-ice [dry-ice@229.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net] has joined #Tunes
<Dry-ice> Hiall
<water> hi, ice
<AlonzoTG> =
<AlonzoTG> \
<AlonzoTG> =\
<water> wow, h2o and co2!
<AlonzoTG> LiNuKs
<Dry-ice> Dose someone know where I could find a mp3 of david bowie's I'm afaid of americans ???
<water> sorry, this is for another kind of tunes.
<water> tunes?
<abi> rumour has it tunes is http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers
10:10am
<Dry-ice> :(
<Dry-ice> last time I came it was music :)
<Dry-ice> I sware 
<water> maybe on another server
<Dry-ice> No,linpeople.org
<water> ah! this is openprojects.net
<Dry-ice> There the same :)
<water> ok, but i don't know a damn thing about finding mp3 bootlegs.
<Dry-ice> I look for it....See you guys later if I mess up again :)
<water> ok
<Dry-ice> Oh,it's a free release though 
<Dry-ice> bye all
-:- Dry-ice [dry-ice@229.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net] has left #Tunes []
10:20am
<AlonzoTG> Its official
<AlonzoTG> I have an Uileek =((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
<AlonzoTG> -<sob>-
<AlonzoTG> -<cry>-
<water> a virus?
<water> oh, a memory leak
<AlonzoTG> uil!
<AlonzoTG> 10-W30
<AlonzoTG> there is more uil on the pavement than in my kar!
<AlonzoTG> =((((
11:10am
<water> :D
<AlonzoTG> quit lafin!
<water> :|
<AlonzoTG> I wish I had a job
<AlonzoTG> I wish I had a job
<AlonzoTG> I wish I had a job
<AlonzoTG> =\
<water> atg: how old are you?
<AlonzoTG> 21
<water> oh
<water> in college, then?
<AlonzoTG> sorta
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (away)
<AlonzoTG> I got a D on my Discrete Math midterm =(
11:20am
<water> oh
11:30am
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for iStormy[rain.futuresouth.com])
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-105.tscnet.net])
-:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250117.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
-:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup021.nni.com] has joined #tunes
-:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
<s_r> hi QZ
<_QZ> hi
<abi> hola, _QZ
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 14 hrs 54 min 47 secs
01:00pm
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-129.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
-:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup021.nni.com] has left #tunes []
-:- iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh5-port32.snet.net] has joined #tunes
<billyboof> hello
<_QZ> hello
<billyboof> hows it going qz
<_QZ> not good
<billyboof> why not?
<_QZ> trying to install accelerated X 4.1 but its saying it cant find 'ls'
<billyboof> hmm... i don't know *nix that well, i don't think i could help you... :(  ... i consider myself to be at a 'user' level for nix...
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!)
-:- tmf [s720@pissemaur.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes
<tmf> hi
<billyboof> hello
<abi> bonjour, billyboof
<tmf> what, if anything, does FOO stand for?
<tmf> First Order Object ? :)
01:40pm
<_QZ> ahh the power of #
<_QZ> if it dont work comment it out :)
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<Fare> QZ: I had no prob with LX 4.1, but that was more than one year ago
01:50pm
* Fare/#Tunes is back from his conference
<tmf> fare, what did you talk about?
<Fare> abolition of intellectual property
<tmf> meaning: we're free to go??
<_QZ> Fare: i had no problem installing it on my old setup
<_QZ> Fare: but it failed to find ls, rm, cp, and a few other basic commands so i just commented them out in the install script
<Fare> why not rather set the PATH?
<_QZ>  /bin was in teh path
<_QZ> it found other commands that were located in /bin
<Fare> problem with incompatible ld.so or such?
<Fare> or libc conflict in presence of LD_LIBRARY_PATH ?
<_QZ> i dunno
<Tril> hi fare
<_QZ> i just hope it will run on glibc2
<Tril> Fare: learn about Zope. I think it could be useful for our web page.
<Tril> shouldn't ls always be statically linked??
<Fare> lo Tril
<Tril> I thought everything in /sbin was anyway
<Tril> ok i'm making this up.. :)
<_QZ> are either of u running accelX on yer glibc2?
<Fare> I thought you typed DIR C:
<Tril> what? commercial linux software? ha!
02:00pm
<Tril> _QZ: my card works fine with XF86_SVGA
<Fare> QZ: LX4.1 wouldn't work with vesafb enabled , anyway
<Tril> any version
<_QZ> yer kidding right?
<Fare> and XF86_SVGA now supports my NeoMagic 128XD, too
<Tril> abi tell fare about zope
<_QZ> how do i tell XF86 to change my refresh rate
<Fare> Tril: it's written in Python, eh?
<Tril> yup
<Fare> QZ: with maybe time to learn python...
<Fare> s/QZ/Tril/
<Fare> QZ: by having the right Modeline
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
<Fare> met laurent martelli, there
<Tril> fare, it uses DTML an embedded <!--#blah> syntax to access Zope objects and properties in web pages. So it'll allow you to design the layout however you want
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (iStormy has no reason)
<Fare> as well as the usual bunch of french free software guys
<_QZ> ya well accelX hasa nice graphical setup app that lets u change all that easily or u can just edit the ini file. nothing hard about typing '640x480@85'
<_QZ> and accelX is faster then xf86
* Fare/#Tunes *hates* the accelX "nice" graphical setup
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-212.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<Fare> I prefer a non-nice setup that works, such as emacs XF86Config
<Tril> Fare: http://zope.tunes.org/ is up and running, I am reading the quickstart now
<Tril> (directly from our site)
<water> hi
<abi> niihau, water
<Fare> anyway, I could get rid of accelX when XBF_Neomagic was oout...
<water> tril: cool
<Fare> QZ: XF86 works, accelX doesn't. And I don't care about X speed as long as it displays text fast enough
<water> fare: i've got lots of pointers on Abstract Interpretation
<Fare> water: k00l
<Fare> cousot&cousot?
<water> to all: and many pointers to arrow logic and other logics
<Fare> I studied in their lab, when I was younger
<water> fare: yep. i got the original paper, too
<Fare> so I guess it'd be eaiser if I asked someone there...
<Fare> water: it's unreadable using acroread, but maybe it's printable...
<water> gimme a sec to get those url's
<Fare> water: you should really write a pag for Review/
<water> fare: no, mine reads it fine. besides, ghostview reads it fine.
<Fare> Radhia Cousot is very nice. Even Patrick has his good sides...
<water> i should write several pages for review, really.  i've got the todo list nearly covered
<water> btw, you can thank hcf for the links. he was generous enough to spend the time compiling them for me.
<Fare> I'm sleep-deprived, since I went to bed late and got up early to misprepare my speech
<water> here's the most general page: http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~corsini/people.html
<Fare> (it was really misprepared, but not completely unsuccessful, anyway)
<water> fare: sorry that it happened that way :(
<water> i mean, it could have been better
<Fare> Tril: zope better than mot?
02:10pm
<water> let's hope so
<Fare> I guess I gotta go sleep before I go mad.
<Tril> zope isnt meant for exactly the same thing as mot, but it's stable, and has a lot more features
<Tril> mot could be written as a zope object I'm sure
<water> fare: i'll email you the rest of the url's
* Fare/#Tunes wonders about the adequacy of a web-based interface
* Fare/#Tunes wonders if an emacs-based interface wouldn't be better
<Fare> water: email it to review@
* water/#tunes wonders if Fare would be satisfied with anything but Tunes
<water> fare: ok
<Fare> water: I doubt I would
<Fare> ok. nice to see you.
* Fare/#Tunes is away
<water> you too.
* Tril/#TUNES doubts if Fare would be satisfied with TUNES :)
<water> hehe :)
<_QZ> oh shit
<_QZ> i think i just fucked up my box
-:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-172.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<HickServ> y0 I'm back from hiking
02:20pm
-:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-129.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-212.tscnet.net])
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Ping timeout for HickServ[209-68-229-172.dialup.cust.tfb.com])
<_QZ> how do i reinstall XF86_SVGA?
02:30pm
-:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-133.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<HickServ> silly modem
-:- _water is now known as water
* water/#tunes has his silly modem well-trained
* HickServ/#tunes slaps water around a bit with a big pole
* water/#tunes slaps HickServ around a bit with a large trout
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> how dare you
<HickServ> time for the ultimate insult
<water> ?
<water> stop that!
<water> it tickles!
<HickServ> hehehe
<HickServ> how be you this fine day water?
<water> i'm ok
<water> good parts and bad parts to everything
<HickServ> ja
<HickServ> i need to check the mailing list
<HickServ> brb
02:40pm
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.250] has joined #Tunes
<water> hi kauf
<Kaufmann> Hi water, everybody
<water> hs and tril are around somewhere.
<HickServ> ay
<water> so is qz
<Kaufmann> Tell me something, how does one break into the field of independent artificial intelligence research?
-:- ShitServ [thrustit@209-68-229-88.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
-:- ShitServ is now known as Dave
<Dave> silly modem did it agian
<water> kauf: well, i do lots of research on the web
<water> and i could get a lot of ai research fairly quickly
<Dave> ai?
<water> but i wouldn't know how to get into it unless it were commercial
<Dave> melikes ai a lot
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Ping timeout for HickServ[209-68-229-133.dialup.cust.tfb.com])
-:- Dave is now known as HickServ
<HickServ> what are you guys doing?
<AlonzoTG> Research isn't the hard part.
<Kaufmann> I'm interested in the real thing, not those silly applications like nn-like financial software. My dream of the ultimate hack is Brain 2.0, a working, self-repairing, fully intelligent nanotech-built artificial brain. Hell yeah!
<AlonzoTG> Its the *development* that gets you
<HickServ> hah!
<water> kauf: sure. ok. whatever.
<HickServ> im currently (alone) working on the algernon project :)
<Kaufmann> water: I'm serious.
<HickServ> it's like a brain
<HickServ> with some shortcuts
<Kaufmann> Very serious.
<water> kauf: got cash?
<tmf> I like AI very much too, but I'm more interested in knowing why it won't work.
<water> capital?
<HickServ> humbug
<water> tmf: you have a web page for tml?
<HickServ> make it software
<HickServ> you don't need money
<tmf> water, no not really
<Kaufmann> water: bah. Cash. Who needs stinkin' cash? :)
02:50pm
<HickServ> not me
<Kaufmann> tmf: why won't it work?
<water> tmf: make one on the Tunes server. i'm writing up a review for html (don't worry, it's very positive).
<tmf> water, kool:)
<water> i'll refer to that until you elaborate on your project
<Kaufmann> Seriously, philosophically I have no problem with living without money (I do that already), doing nothing but research.
-:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh5-port32.snet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> kauf: neither do i, but hardware has to be built to be tested
<water> hi bill
<billyboof> hey water, hows it going..
<water> not bad, bill
<tmf> intelligence and awareness is somewhat dependent on properties like simultaneousness.
<billyboof> anyone here know how to interface with ATA (port io with harddrives)
<AlonzoTG> B00F!!!!
<tmf> and computers are somewhat depentent on order.
<HickServ> y0 billy
<HickServ> how's it goin?
<billyboof> hey hick..
<HickServ> i got my intel manuals :)
<billyboof> good... how about you... whats up alonzo..
<Kaufmann> water: yes, but I intend to create an inexpensive nanocomponent assembler first. Once I do that, then all one has to do is program the assembler instruction seed.
<HickServ> and i ordered 4 more
<billyboof> cool deal... i've got my harddrive reading routine working 75%
<HickServ> YES!
<water> kauf: hopefully. the technology is new, and won't be reliable or bug-free, i'm guessing
<HickServ> i think i will dedicate the rest of my day to ai stuff
<HickServ> protected mode is getting on my nerves
<billyboof> hahaha...
<billyboof> pmode is *fun* :)
<tmf> kaufmann, I aggree that a you might get away with creating ai in another context, like nano-computers. But then the line between "artificial" and "real" gets fuzzy. And eventually an etical issue.
<HickServ> billy: yeah but not after a day of reading abouut it
<billyboof> hahahah
<AlonzoTG> Me kar has an uileek!
<AlonzoTG> =*((((((((((((((((((((((((
<Kaufmann> water: yes. Therefore my goal is to make an assembler design that will be like ribosomes - completely mechanic, no computation, very simple and modular, so that very little can go wrong internally.
<tmf> if AI was to be my slave, I would like to believe that it didn't mind.
<billyboof> Alonzo: huh?
<Kaufmann> tmf: it would be a horrible thing to make another mind your slave.
<HickServ> uileek?
<HickServ> robot - chec for "to serv"
<tmf> kaufmann, yeah, my point.
<AlonzoTG> oil leak. Can't u read? ;)
<tmf> no, Dave, stop, ... my mind is dissapearing, I can feel it.
<HickServ> blarg you alonzo
-:- SignOff tmf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> hehe!
<HickServ> uh
<water> :D
<HickServ> did i do that?
<HickServ> oh well
<water> hs: it's a reference to 2001.
<HickServ> that movie was weird
03:00pm
* billyboof/#tunes is getting pissed with his HD reading routine..
-:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250115.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hey tcn
<HickServ> hi tcn
<tcn> hey all.. full house
<AlonzoTG> om
<HickServ> water you took my idea
<water> ?
<Kaufmann> Well, I'm going now. Bye.
<tcn> i'm just gonna hang out here while I program..
<HickServ> i had the idea for a prism kinda thing half a year ago
<HickServ> but i didn't know anything then
<water> hs: prism's not my idea.
<HickServ> oh?
<HickServ> oh hehehe
<water> hs: my arrow idea is about five years old.
<HickServ> your idea is arrow
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein)
<HickServ> yes
<HickServ> who's is prism?
<water> hell, it's older than tunes, actually.
<water> Jim Little
<HickServ> well i never tried to pursue my idea
<HickServ> boink
<HickServ> it was dumb :)
<HickServ> damnit this flab of skin in my mouth is pissing me off
<tcn> i needed to hear that
<water> speaking of dumb... :)
<HickServ> YES!
03:10pm
<HickServ> where is thatqz
<HickServ> i need to pick a bone with him
<HickServ> oh well
<Tril> tcn know anything about zope?
03:20pm
<tcn> Tril: nope
-:- smoke [smoke@7dyn93.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> tcn: go check it out, we're thinking of using it for the tunes page.
<Tril> zope.tunes.org or www.zope.org
<tcn> ok
-:- smoke is now known as repstosb
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us705.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<tcn> anyone familiar with GGI?
<repstosb> tcn: i am
<tcn> Tril: see what you can do with zope.. test it out some more..
-:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup124.nni.com] has joined #tunes
<tcn> repstosb: core told me GGI could be linked into an XCOM object and used in another OS.. you know if I need anything besides the regular ggi distro for this?
<repstosb> tcn: ouch, i am not familiar with the xcom concept..
<s_r> xcom?
<abi> somebody said xcom was a portable component system at http://xcom.tunes.org
<repstosb> hmm.
<repstosb> i don't think ggi supports that format
<tcn> repstosb: well I guess if it runs on several OS's, it'll work for me
03:30pm
<repstosb> ggi does run on multiple platforms indeed
<tcn> there's a patch for GNU ld to link xcoms
<tcn> how about the 2d/3d libraries, are they also platform independent?
<tcn> or at least, multiplatform..
<repstosb> atm the 2d and 3d libraries are almost empty
<tcn> oh.. hehe
<repstosb> they will be platform independent i think, but in my personal opinion i don't think the ggi team should continue them
<tcn> so ggi basically gives you a framebuffer?
<repstosb> not necessarily
<repstosb> it does a lot more, but if framebuffers aren't supported, you won't get one from libggi :)
<repstosb> for example input devices are supported by a part of the ggi project too
<s_r> rep: are you developing an OS?
<tcn> well, I should just download it before I ask any more stupid questions :)
<repstosb> it's somewhat more complicated than openPTC for example :)
<repstosb> s-r: no, i am just interested in the tunes project, my OS knowledge is very limited :(
<HickServ> i became enlightened about os's over the weekend :)
<water> hs: how so?
<s_r> water: he reached enlightenment
<HickServ> after reading that intel manual i came to understand what os's do
<water> oh. their processor manuals
<s_r> does anyone know about Clementine, the OS being made by Core?
<water> hs: not all os's use a processor's built-in support
<HickServ> of course not
<HickServ> but im not talking about the processor
<s_r> water: how so? Don't all OSes have to use the processor's protection mechanisms?
<HickServ> i just know what processors do now
<s_r> water: how could an OS not use the processor's support?
<tcn> s_r: oh yeah, I know a little about clementine
<water> sr: relatively simple: simply implement all the features in software.
<water> hs: oh
<tcn> s_r: core hasn't been able to release it under the GPL yet, afaik.
03:40pm
<HickServ> atleast now i know how to do pmode stuff
<tcn> hs: well, you have a clue :)  that shit's tricky..
<tcn> ok, I got GGI..
<HickServ> it is
<HickServ> core's page is weird
<repstosb> hickserv: where is it located ?
<HickServ> http://www.core.netnation.org/ his art 0wnz hehehe
<s_r> water: if you want to implement features in software, how does it work
<s_r> because
<s_r> the code (user app) is executed
<s_r> and sent to the processor
<s_r> and it can do anything the PROCESSOR allows it to do, 
<s_r> and if the processor's security is not being used
03:50pm
<s_r> it wouldn't work, i think
<s_r> the only way i can see software implementing security
<s_r> is if the user app is interpreted
<s_r> and i don't think that's what you mean
<s_r> so please, tell me how or point me to something i can learn from
<repstosb> hickserv: thanks
<tcn> repstosb: what's GII?
<repstosb> lib-general input interface
<water> sr: think exokernel
<tcn> gotcha
<repstosb> it binds keyboard, mice and joysticks and other things eventually to a visual
<HickServ> exokernel: bah humbug
<s_r> water how is it possible to implement software security with directly executed code?
<HickServ> very unstable
<s_r> HickServ: can you tell me what water means?
<HickServ> about what?
<s_r> how software can implement processor-level security?
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> it's kinda tough
<HickServ> i don't really know how it would
<HickServ> i mean you can get the software to try not to use other app's memory
<water> it's basically a simplification of emulation, except that you only emulate one feature
<HickServ> but you don't have the shear protection of the processor
<water> you also could dynamically-compile everything
<water> using a high-level language
<water> not c
<s_r> how does MIT's Aegis ExoPC/XOK do it?
<s_r> i think they use directly executable code
<water> not sure, exactly
<water> maybe it doesn't work without dynamic compilation
<s_r> i am going to make an ExoKernel with an attitude
<s_r> ExoPC is too bland
<water> sr: garbage-collection is also a version of mem-prot
<s_r> water: Clementine is nokernel.
<s_r> how is Clementine "no-kernel"
<water> sr: i don't know. where's it's homepage?
<tcn> What I'd do is write a compiler that can't generate "bad" machine code, and run programs it compiled in the same memory space.
<water> tcn: aka dynamic compilation
<tcn> water: try www.nokernel.org
<s_r> or just use the concept of "trusted" programs
04:00pm
<s_r> trusted programs would to degrees be able to do privileged things
<tcn> a proof-checking compiler would be nice though :)
<s_r> and perhaps run in kernel space
<s_r> www.nokernel.org has nothing
<water> curry-howard-debruyn isomorphism means that a compiler could make certain programs proven
<water> tcn: yes, what's the homepage html?
<water> the language could even be made easily provable
-:- SignOff repstosb: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world)
<s_r> water: would it be possible to prove machine code?
<tcn> s_r: hmm.. should be.. it might be tough, though..
<HickServ> how the hell do you prove a language?
<water> sr: it would have to fit some tight restrictions.  java byte-code is similar and pretty hard to prove correct
<water> hs: Vlisp is proven
<tcn> Today I was wondering if there are any languages for writing complex state machines.. you guys know of anything?
<s_r> just check for memory reads and writes
<s_r> and check for I/O operations
<water> tcn: sure
<s_r> verify the I/O and memory access
<water> tcn: what kind?
<tcn> water: for controlling robots and such
<water> sr: not just that, but also function calls and such
<tcn> I suppose any program could be represented as a state machine..
-:- smoke [smoke@7dyn93.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
<smoke> re
<tcn> welcome back
<hcf> water: will u be posting those abs inp and * logic urls to the review mlist?
<water> yes, i'm working on the mails right now.
<water> (amongst other things)
<hcf> k, cool
<HickServ> how do you prove a language?
<tcn> hs: study lots of math :)
<water> hs: formalize the language
<tcn> hs: formal systems
<tcn> also simplify the language, so it's easy to formalize, work with, and prove
<water> right
<s_r> tcn: are you going to make Retro exokernel?
<tcn> water: you start with axioms, and build the formal system up from there.. right?
<tcn> s_r: I don't really know what exokernel means.. :)
<HickServ> im studying computational science
<HickServ> if that helps
<s_r> exokernel?
<abi> exokernel is a system with no run-time kernel
<s_r> basically, allow the process itself to do what the kernel usually would do
<water> tcn: that's one way
<s_r> the only thing the small kernel does is allocate and deallocate hardware
<tcn> s_r- I don't believe it's possible not to have a kernel.. whatever forms the core of the system is the kernel
<s_r> i think
<s_r> i'm not too sure myself
<s_r> tcn well you're right, but they use a very small kernel, as i said before
<tcn> the definition of kernel is pretty vague too
<water> tcn: it's a research project at mit, go look it up
<tcn> then I guess that's what Retro is, an exokernel
04:10pm
* HickServ/#tunes is thinking of his own kernel type
<water> no, it's microkernel
<_QZ> what do 48bit color codes contain?
<water> exokernel has no "hardware allocator"
<tcn> water: what makes it a ukernel?
<HickServ> hola QZ
<water> tcn: if module allocation is managed by a single piece of code, then it's microkernel
<_QZ> hola hick
<HickServ> how am i gonna code stuff for brix?
<_QZ> what do u mena
<s_r> why are some functions preceded by a "_"
<s_r> __printf
<s_r> etc
<s_r> ?
<smoke> is the tunes project going to support only the high and lowlevel languages described on the webpages, or is there room for c/c++ compilers too?
<HickServ> well how will i develope my interpreter for brix
<tcn> water: ok, maybe I should move away from that :)  My current module system is pretty crappy.. but it does the job for now :)
<water> smoke: there's a c-translator project for that :)
<HickServ> catch that qz?
<tcn> smoke: there could be a C compiler for tunes, when someone writes/ports one
<tcn> smoke: probably gcc
* smoke/#tunes still doesn't understand the real purpose of the tunes project 
<water> tcn: that's what the c-translator project is.
<smoke> is it just "Creating a new (..) OS", or is there more to it?
<tcn> the idea is to have one code-generator back end, and a front-end for C
<water> tunes?
<abi> tunes is probably http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers
<tcn> and any other language
<water> tcn: you're smoking some really good crack.
<tcn> smoke: see www.tunes.org/~fare ... he has some stuff about his dreams.. I think you might learn more about his goal there than on the tunes page..
<smoke> hmm
<smoke> still pretty vague :)
* water/#tunes writes up tcn's magical code generator for Tunes.
<smoke> tcn: ah, i will - thanks
<tcn> a code generator.. you know, a syntax tree --> machine code translator
<tcn> the GNU compilers do something similar
<water> tcn: goedel's theorem says that your idea is _impossible_
<water> gnu compilers are lame
<s_r> gnu compilers are well written
<water> sr: sure.
<tcn> sure gcc is slow, but that doesn't mean every method it uses is bad.. just some of them
<s_r> water do you think gcc outputs bloated code?
<tcn> most conventional languages are just different syntaxes for the same thing
<smoke> tcn: what exactly are you talking about? :)
04:20pm
<water> sr: of course! it supports standard c-based library linking and crap like that.
<tcn> smoke: try it.. write a simple program in C, LISP, FORTH, ML, etc.. and draw it out as a tree structure.. all those languages will represent the same tree structure for your program.
<s_r> why does gcc output bloated programs
<smoke> tcn: i understand that point - but do you also imply that those languages cover each possible language that humans or computers will come up with in the future ? 
<water> sr: because you can't re-use code other than by function-call
<tcn> all HLL compilers create bloated programs :)
<tcn> smoke: no, but that covers a big chunk of popular languages
<water> sr: my squeak code size is about 4 megs, but supports the same amount of functionality as 40 megs of c.
<smoke> tcn: do i understand things right that you're working on a uniform language?
<s_r> water: what? what is this code of yours?
<water> sr: i'm talking about my smalltalk environment that came with the Squeak distribution.
<s_r> water it was compiled in Squeak?
<water> sr: it's basically an entire OS.
<water> sr: yes
<tcn> smoke: umm.. not necessarily an all-purpose language.. more like a uniform way of compiling programs from different languages. And also a language that's extensible enough to suit (almost) any purpose.
<water> sr: i can even shrink the code by 30% without loosing any functionality.
<s_r> water: so there is hope for someone like me, who wants to make a better compiler?
<water> sr: of course, if your yardstick is c.
<s_r> hmmm
<s_r> if my yardstick was forth though?
<smoke> tcn: hmm. pretty weird/noble a project..
<smoke> tcn: are you _distilling or _redefining the concept of language for that?
<tcn> An older programmer friend of mine told me something like "software is decades behind hardware.. the past 50 years have been the early stages"
<tcn> it's an open frontier
<smoke> tcn: i've been heard saying that too with the number 50 exchanged for another :)
<tcn> heh
<tcn> programming now is kinda like math was in the middle ages.. 
<tcn> no, in prehistoric times
<smoke> i think there are a lot of reasons for software lagging behind hardware; measures of lag being the over important one :)
<smoke> i agree wholeheartedly :)
<smoke> however, i always get stuck asking "What in earthsname would we need a better concept of software for?" 
<tcn> when it's all distilled, it'll be like basic arithmetic, or basic algebra..
04:30pm
<smoke> answering both positive and negative things
<smoke> personally, i don't really think there will be one small base
<tcn> here's one reason for the lag: past & current programming techniques have gotten us a long ways
<water> smoke: so you would never have to apply to a large group of bored programmers to work for years to produce a disposable and obsolescent product
<smoke> water: hahahah :)
<tcn> heh
<tcn> yeah, if tunes is successful, a side effect will be millions of jobless programmers
<tcn> it's like any other technology
<water> smoke: so you can share information without a large group of corporations and governments deciding exactly what sort of information that you have the right to share.
<AlonzoTG> om
<smoke> most new technology's have created new jobs iir my history c
<tcn> we're talking AUTOMATION here
<tcn> meta-automation :)
<smoke> i consider automation a joke :)
<water> smoke: so you can decide to change something about your software, and not be punished by the market-place by having "non-standard" software
<tcn> tunes to automate programming to automate machines to automate human labor
<smoke> water: those are all pretty 'local' views imho - hoping i'm not offending you
<tcn> water: good point
<water> smoke: i know that it's provincial, but there are better reasons, too
<smoke> wouldn't it be dull if my computer has sex with my girlfriend and i myself am just sitting in an idle-loop ?
<tcn> that's when you screw your computer
<smoke> tcn: the whole idea of automating 'everything' is pretty risky
<water> smoke: in that case, we'll have to re-think what is so important about human contact, won't we?
<tcn> (man, I hope society doesn't degenerate that far)
<smoke> (from now on just think IMHO's twice in every sentence i make)
<water> tcn: it's already there. we're just waiting for hardware to catch up.
<tcn> smoke: not everything, just the more mindless stuff
<smoke> tcn: still, how do we/you know that some people don't enjoy doing mindless stuff?
<smoke> tunes is one of the most 'moral' programming projects i've seen until now, or i must be very mistaken
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving)
<tcn> smoke: oh, I like farming, building, etc.. but mindless mind-work (like data entry) is fuckin horrible.. your mind can't wander off and still let you do any work..
<smoke> tcn: hehe.
<tcn> digging, for example, you can daydream all you want :)
<hcf> water: that pike link is broken
<smoke> tcn: yes, but think of the horrible things men will come up with if they have all of their lives to spend thinking out plans
04:40pm
<tcn> you take the bad with the good
<water> hcf: crap. it worked just a few days ago
<hcf> water: isnt this the same pike that roxen uses?
<tcn> and remember that we'll all be gone sooner or later
<tcn> gone and forgotten :)
<smoke> hm
<smoke> at what 'level' should i see tunes operate ?
<water> hcf: i think so
<smoke> are there plans/dreams to create _huge_ applications with it?
<water> smoke: there won't be levels
<water> smoke: ever worked with smalltalk or lisp?
<smoke> as in, US Government 0.3 beta and such projects?
<water> smoke: eventually
<smoke> water: lisp yes, smalltalk i've only read about
<tcn> yeah, if it gets that far
<smoke> pretty risky soup no ?
<water> it's more like smalltalk: "everything is an object"
<smoke> would one person be allowed to implement all of 'struct disaster* LaunchMissiles(int n, int megatonsEach);' ?
<smoke> if there's a C wrapper tunes would allow idiocracy like this, no ?
<water> smoke: it's not like that.  names don't define the object
<water> smoke: semantics define the object
<tcn> names are for us to identify objects :)
<smoke> water: hmm. and how are semantics fed to the computer ?
<tcn> smoke: using names :)
<smoke> funny :)
<smoke> there has to be some base, no ?
<tcn> semantics are specified by syntax, which could be LISP for example
<smoke> where for example do comparisons and sets come from ?
<water> smoke: we're working that out still.
<water> smoke: definitions of semantics are eventually circular.
<water> smoke: and many definitions are possible for the same name.
-:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-92.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<smoke> hm
<smoke> you realize not one base will be the Only one ?
04:50pm
<water> smoke: sure.
<smoke> ha
<smoke> so returning to an earlier question.. is tunes "Yet another OS" or really different?
<water> tunes will implement oses; it is not itself an os.
<water> but, a new os built by tunes would help it run better
<smoke> aha
<smoke> does it have any resemblance to The Hurd then ?
<water> some people want to make a new os just to build tunes.
<water> smoke: maybe, but probably not.
<smoke> what hardware is tunes aimed at ?
<water> smoke: tunes will be able to make any kind of software environment
<smoke> hmm isn't that somewhat hard to accomplish? :)
<tcn> smoke: parallel and distributed-parallel computers, in the future
<water> smoke: tunes will be portable. it will have descriptions of its hardware, and descriptions of how to implement itself
<tcn> single processors are on the way out
<s_r> tcn have you ever used BeOS?
<s_r> BeOS emphasizes multiprocessing
<s_r> err multiple processes
<s_r> i mean
<s_r> multiple processors
<water> sr: smp, which is a specific kind
<smoke> you're not that idealistic to support 2dimensional code ? (or better yet three dimensional code, once computers get smaller and allow this)
<water> smoke: you mean syntax?
<smoke> i should've picked a better handle to sound convincing
<water> smoke: syntax is not semantics, so it doesn't define code.
<smoke> water: yes, both syntax and implementation
<tcn> a lot of tunes people are interested in distributed processing, not with shared memory like smp
<water> smoke: syntax will be arbitrary in tunes, as well as user-interface style.
<smoke> what exactly in tunes will be explicit and non-arbitrary then ?
<water> smoke: it will depend on whatever the user is doing.
-:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup124.nni.com] has left #tunes []
<smoke> aha
<water> smoke: the user will also have control over that
<smoke> now i understand what the bot's definition means with 'like internet is for networks' (or something alike)
<smoke> or so i believe
<tcn> so, any good video programmers here?
05:00pm
<water> graphics engines for me
* smoke/#tunes 's done some demo code
<smoke> tcn: why?
<tcn> i'm wanting to access the video memory through a linear aperture, to avoid that bank switching crap :)
<tcn> slowness
<smoke> aha.
<tcn> then I could get in a high rez mode without too much trouble
<smoke> in your own os, or in an existing one ?
<tcn> in mine
<tcn> and without using the bios
<smoke> well, it'd be pretty interesting to port KGI to that os
<smoke> (kernel graphics interface iirc)
<tcn> what's the difference between kgi and ggi?
<tcn> ggi sepercedes kgi, i thought?
<smoke> ggi = libggi+libgii+kgi+libggi2d+libggi3d+libgic+loads of other things
<smoke> libggi is the library that has to work on each and every platform and hand the user a linear framebuffer and some other fancy things, but not too much
<smoke> kgi is a video driver system at the lower level, directly supporting the hardware and giving an api for use by libggi
<smoke> kgi is not in the main libggi tarball.. it's developed seperately
<tcn> oops, i need that too :)
<smoke> libggi = ggi-snapshot-DATE.tar.gz
<smoke> i don't have an url here right away, but you could look it up in the mailinglist archives
<smoke> (i could try and will too, but my connection is slow and the odds of you having the url earlier would be enormous)
-:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has joined #tunes
<_BC> Hi
<abi> salut, _BC
<water> hi bc
<_BC> Howdy all!
<_BC> what is essenseos.net?  same thing as tunes.org ??
* _BC/#tunes (~ . essenceos)
<water> it's a new open-source os
<water> no, not tunes
<AlonzoTG> hmm
<AlonzoTG> looking...
<AlonzoTG> never heard ov it.
<hcf> rtos for information appliances
<_BC> wow, awesome.  anyone know much about i?
<_BC> it
<water> it is supposed to be modular
<smoke> tcn; got it. the kgi-0.9-990607 snapshot is available from http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/~sse
<smoke> If you like to test it, please fetch the whole tar,gz and extract it 
<smoke> into a fresh kgi-0.9 tree.
* _BC/#tunes likes RTOS's.
<water> btw, the code isn't available yet
<tcn> hey, BC.. i've been wanting to chat with you
<_BC> really tcn?
<tcn> I saw the irc log the first time you came on here..
05:10pm
<_BC> Oh.. uh oh .. :)
<_BC> What ya thinkin?
<tcn> hang on
<tcn> oh, here we go:
<tcn> <_BC> goodnight.  obtw, the hardware solution has to do with a "proxy".
<tcn> you remember what you had in mind?
<_BC> ah, yes i do.. 
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-129.tscnet.net])
<HickServ> could  someone help me with some asm linux without directing me to a file
<HickServ> i just want some real help
<_BC> I believe I was talking about a proxy-like interface between apps, and hardware. A proxy that the kernal obeys as well.
<tcn> for quick message passing, right?
<_BC> for message passing, and protection from corruption. Also my feeling is it can abstract the machine slightly, providing a more uniform interface for programming.
<HickServ> are you good with asm with linux tcn?
<_BC> Are you interested in the M.P. angle?
<tcn> hs: i've already told you all I know about that, hs. Read the Assembly-HOWTO and the NASM manual.
<tcn> _BC: sure
* HickServ/#tunes starts to shiver
<HickServ> iiiiii
<tcn> hs: i'll even tell ya the chapter to read in the nasm manual
<HickServ> fine
<tcn> hs: Chapter 8
<HickServ> blarg you
<_BC> tcn; what type of message passing are you interested in?  what is interesting to you about my idea?
<tcn> i'm also wondering what you had in mind for IRQ's..
05:20pm
<tcn> damn, if only I could remember what I was thinking a month ago :)
<_BC> tcn; I may not have considered all things; however, my feeling is that, thru the abstraction layer (the proxy I-F), if a class or group (eg; serial ports) requires IRQs, then
<_BC> that condition is known about ahead of time because of the definition of the i-f.  So the proxy would 'call-back' thru the layer to the ISR segment of the class.  In my example, the serial port.
<_BC> Or, do you see anything I'm missing/blundering?
<tcn> no, it's making sense.. and programs could talk to each other through the same mechanism, right?
<_BC> Right.
<tcn> cool :)
<tcn> ITS had a thing like that
<tcn> but I think it used a PDP-6-ism to do it :)
<_BC> In my rtos idea, messages are passed to processes (which also perhaps might be other machines :) are
<_BC> by immediate calls.  Much like a SIGNAL would be.  
<_BC> Although I have no idea what the pdp6 was like - that sounds somewhat scary..:)
<tcn> yeah, but not as limited as SIGNAL
<_BC> Yah.  The process would have to be ready to receive the particular signal/message, however.  Basically just an ISR tied to the list of messages for that process listed in the OS data.
05:30pm
<tcn> this would be really useful in a "no kernel" os..
<tcn> system calls would be no different from calling other programs
<_BC> The thing I like about the proxy-abstraction layer, is that processes need not worry about intermachine communication.  Just load a different proxy service for the channel, and Zoom.. you're sending messages to another process on another machine.
<tcn> hmm, yeah
-:- iStormy_ [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes
<_BC> Yah you got it!  The OS takes a position shoulder to shoulder to other processes. sorta.
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (SRUKN)
<tcn> but this isn't just another interprocess communication scheme.. it's realtime..
<_BC> As RealTime as possible.
<iStormy_> hi
<abi> hey, iStormy_
<tcn> hey istormy
<_BC> Hia istormy.
<iStormy_> i'm thinking of starting a mail-order computer component business, someone talk me out of it.  (c;
-:- iStormy_ is now known as eStormy
<_BC> Ok Stormy.  Here..  You won't make money!   Feel better?
<tcn> you'll have a million competitors
<HickServ> you'll have to give me a blowjob
<HickServ> oh wait
<HickServ> wrong chan
<HickServ> different business
<eStormy> 99% of my competitors seem to be witless idiots with no concept of customer relations.  (c:
<_BC> rofl
<tcn> obviously you haven't dealt with customers :)
<eStormy> however, 99% of the world will give their money to the witless idiots cause they're cheaper than me
<tcn> you know "the customer is always right"? well there's also "the customer is also an asshole"
<eStormy> i worked for close to a year at a mail-order computer place
<eStormy> we had one company order a $7k printer, ups delivered it, they signed for it, and then lost it in their warehouse somewhere
<eStormy> they insisted it was our fault and we should send them another printer
<eStormy> is that the kinda thing you meaant.  (c;
<_BC> eew.  well, the customer paid for a printer, and a printer they will want.
<tcn> it was probably a combination of the customer's fault, the company's fault, and ups's
<eStormy> they got it too...they signed for it.
05:40pm
<eStormy> i assume they eventually found it, cause they quit bugging us
<tcn> hehe
<_BC> tcn; are you still interested in the 'proxy layer'?
<tcn> _BC: yeah, tell me more
<_BC> well, i pretty much explained the concept. I wondered if you like it, or wanted to use it or what you think of it.
<tcn> yeah, i'm gonna use something like that.
<_BC> kool. may i ask what in?
<tcn> what's your email? we should flesh it out a little.  mine's tcn@tunes.org
<tcn> i'm working on an OS
<_BC> i'm   bmcbrine@freenet.alberni.net
<tcn> i've got a little www page for it.. tunes.org/~tcn/retro.html
<_BC> my first name is Bill.
<tcn> Tom
<_BC> I'll have a look at that soon as i can.
<eStormy> i hate web pages that have every page set to no-cache and don't even have dynamic content
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> in a RTOS, does the scheduler set the timer to a different interval for each process?
<_BC> my opinion;  no.  it simply adjusts the timing to the granularless of the tick.
<AlonzoTG> om
<_BC> i mean, granularness.
<_BC> or more properly, granularity. :)
<tcn> ok.. i thought reprogramming the timer would cause too many I/O delays..
<_BC> unless.... the schedueler could dynamically reprogram the interval, for how long the next critical event known to take place..??
<_BC> provokative idea;. but i think it would complicate the sched too much.
05:50pm
<tcn> I saw this idea in one of John Fine's example programs.. i'm not sure how well it would work in practice..
<tcn> (ie, if his algorithm will guarantee that a task runs at a certain interval)
<tcn> it's www.erols.com/~johnfine, btw..
<_BC> ok, thx. i
<_BC> i'll look too.
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-38.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<hcf> water!
<tcn> now I'll try to get some programming done tonight.. haven't worked on my OS in over a week
<_BC> how long have you been dev'ing it, tcn?
<water> hi hcf
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Excess Flood)
<hcf> abi: pliant is at http://pliant.cams.ehess.fr
<tcn> almost a year
<tcn> excess flood.. hehe.. he prolly got flamed :)
<hcf> water: u used http://pliant.cams.echess.fr/ in ur post
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp290.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<water> oh
-:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-92.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<_ruiner_> geez....the room is stacked
<_BC> tcn; kool!  I don't yet have any code to show for my os.  Concepts have been congealing in my head for years though!
<water> hcf: i'll repost
<AlonzoTG> bc: pleaze tell me about yer OS
<AlonzoTG> =){
<tcn> bc: yeah, you're coming up with some good stuff
<_BC> It's an RTOS, built to be small but scalable, fast and efficient, and also abstract enough to work from one cpu, or 'more'. :)
<AlonzoTG> k
<_BC> I'll be making a web page for it 'Real Soon Now'. :)
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is after the general purpose market
<_ruiner_> lol
<AlonzoTG> =)
* _ruiner_/#tunes is after home users and certain multimedia niches
<_BC> I would chat more about it, Alonzo, however I don't have much more time for now, so maybe another time.
<AlonzoTG> sure
<AlonzoTG> I'm sorry that I only just now woke wup
06:00pm
<tcn> read the logs :)
<_BC> Thanks TCN for the positive feedback! :)
<tcn> yeah, nice talking with ya
<_ruiner_> hmmm.....how do you read the logs with mirc?
<hcf> _ruiner_: u cant
<tcn> thanks for the inspiration
<_ruiner_> argh!
<hcf> unless u have a script that can ftp or http fetch
<_BC> yes , where can we access the chat log?  is it archived on web?
<water> logs are on the web site
<tcn> http://tunes.org/files/irc
<AlonzoTG> cool. =)
<_ruiner_> cool
<_BC> thanks
<tcn> I type that a lot :)
<_BC> bye for now...
<tcn> later
-:- SignOff _BC: #TUNES (I toss myself out of an airlock and try to sing....)
* tcn/#tunes makes his escape :)
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<hcf> water: http://pliant.cams.ehess.fr not http://pliant.cams.echess.fr
<water> hcf: foo not foo. what?
<hcf> s/echess/ehess/
<water> god damn
<water> how is that possible?
<water> i copied the address directly!
<AlonzoTG> B00F!!!!
<hcf> water: from where?
<water> aaarrrggghhh!
<billyboof> hey alonzo... whats up man
* hcf/#tunes will be more specific next time
<AlonzoTG> thinking about CPU design
<HickServ> hi al
<billyboof> CPU design??
06:10pm
<AlonzoTG> coming up with funky ideaz...
<HickServ> how da os coming?
<AlonzoTG> on hold pending 1.2 million dollars of books.
<water> f*** the internet protocols!
<HickServ> yes
<HickServ> f*** them
<water> oh, wait. their based on the english language, the most vile virus to infect humanity.
<HickServ> YES!
<HickServ> i so agree with you wate
<HickServ> r
* water/#tunes can't wait until society is ready for his language ideas.
<HickServ> spanish will sufice for now :)
<water> spanish is worse than english by far
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<HickServ> no
<HickServ> bavoso
<HickServ> que hablas
<HickServ> espanol es mas bueno que ingles joto
<water> why?
<HickServ> more consistancy 
<HickServ> postfix's
<HickServ> on da verbs
<water> bullshit
<water> consistency is worse when there are exceptions
06:20pm
<water> better to be completely chaotic than have rules with exceptions
<HickServ> less than english though
<HickServ> herm
* HickServ/#tunes changes the subject
<HickServ> tcn it doesn't say anything about command line crap
<HickServ> you lie gi
<HickServ> my head hurts :(
06:30pm
<_ruiner_> I'm gonna make a programming language based on pig latin
<_ruiner_> that'd be interesting...
* water/#tunes educates himself with some cs research.
<HickServ> the only thing i can do is educate myself
<_ruiner_> why is that hick?
<HickServ> im too young to really take classes
06:40pm
<_ruiner_> no you aren't
<_ruiner_> you could sign up for summer classes at a tech school no problem
<_ruiner_> just have to be careful what you decide to take....
<_ruiner_> don't wanna take computer concepts like I'm forced to.....stupid class....since when is microsoft office a concept?
<HickServ> well i could take them at the community college
<_ruiner_> there you go...
<HickServ> but my mom won't drive me
<_ruiner_> doh!
<_ruiner_> then I suggest you con your parents and other relatives into going with you to the book store once in a while....
<HickServ> brb
<HickServ> oh i do :)
06:50pm
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-38.tscnet.net])
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- iepos [iepos@d6.t1-4.tecinfo.com] has joined #TUNES
<AlonzoTG> Help!!!!!!!
<AlonzoTG> =\
<billyboof> with what?
<AlonzoTG> I need a silly inscriptin
<AlonzoTG> inscription
<billyboof> huh?  whats that? :)
<AlonzoTG> In this story I'm riting...
<AlonzoTG> thereze a temple...
<AlonzoTG> And in that temple there is this big column of lite that is the oracle of the G0D
<AlonzoTG> At the top of the column there is an enscription
<AlonzoTG> It needs to be silly...
<AlonzoTG> =P
08:00pm
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp290.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<AlonzoTG> okay the section is done.
<_ruiner_> what section?
<abi> section is probably done.
<AlonzoTG> Abi: heheheh
<AlonzoTG> in my storie that I am riting.
<_ruiner_> ah...
<_ruiner_> you mean writing I assume
<AlonzoTG> yepers
<AlonzoTG> man this story has taken me so long to rite. =P
<_ruiner_> whats it about?
<billyboof> hey ruiner.. whats up
<_ruiner_> not much billy....
<billyboof> cool
<_ruiner_> I wanted some help trying to figure out multitasking
<billyboof> what do you need?
<AlonzoTG> yes!
<AlonzoTG> what do u need to learn about multitasking?
<AlonzoTG> Don't get in a Deadlock! =P
<AlonzoTG> hehe
* AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes _ruiner_ with an iron mace
08:20pm
<_ruiner_> how to do it
<_ruiner_> round robin, priority, shortest task first....etc etc
<_ruiner_> I was thinking round robin with processor time determined by priority
<_ruiner_> instead of something not getting access cuz everything else has a higher priority
<billyboof> ohhh... that's schedualing... not multitasking :P... i thought you were asking just plain how to make more than one task run...
<_ruiner_> ah.....nope
<_ruiner_> though...if you wanna talk about that I'm all ears
<billyboof> do you know how to make the system run two tasks with 50/50 priority?
<_ruiner_> not really
<billyboof> ok... you know that you have to make a TSS structure and an entry for it in the GDT?
<_ruiner_> heh heh heh
<_ruiner_> stick to concept here....
<_ruiner_> I'm not to the nitty gritty of the tech terms yet
<billyboof> umm... these are pretty major... you know what the GDT is atleast right?
<_ruiner_> hmmmm.....maybe......tell me and it might sound familiar
<_ruiner_> are you talking about identifiers for each process?
<billyboof> global descriptor table... has entries for all segments...
<AlonzoTG> om
<billyboof> tss=task state segment, saves all the registers for a task...
<_ruiner_> my roommate was talking about tss.....
<billyboof> basicly each task will have a tss, and an entry in the gdt that points to it...
<billyboof> to switch to a task, you do: jmp GDT_tssPointer:0
<_ruiner_> ok....gotcha
<billyboof> where the gdt_tssPointer is the entry number for the tss
<_ruiner_> I need some good books on os dev and software engineering
08:30pm
<billyboof> intel books .. :)
<billyboof> they're free..
<_ruiner_> really?
<_ruiner_> where can I snag them?
<billyboof> developer.intel.com ... literature section, find the order # and phone #, call them, give your address and they'll send it to you (takes like 5 days to get it)
<billyboof> you want the intel arch. software developers manuals... volumes 1,2 and 3...
<billyboof> volume 3 is for system coding... but they're free, so why not get vol 1&2 also (app programming and instruction set reference)
<_ruiner_> really?
<_ruiner_> free.....I don't have to pay shipping or anything? 
<billyboof> yep... totally free...
<billyboof> i've got 4 books from them
<billyboof> getting a cd-rom when the new one comes out (in a couple weeks)
<_ruiner_> they offer a free assembler?
<billyboof> i dunno... i just use nasm...
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp290.wi.centuryinter.net])
08:40pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp245.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<_ruiner_> got disconnected..
<_ruiner_> wasn't blowing you off or anything...but I gots to go...
<_ruiner_> later
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
09:00pm
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
-:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Ping timeout for iepos[d6.t1-4.tecinfo.com])
-:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eStormy[rain.futuresouth.com])
-:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh5-port32.snet.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0614
IRC log ended Mon Jun 14 00:00:01 1999