IRC log started Sun May 23 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0523 -:- bullfrog [user5127@p53.ta5.actcom.co.il] has joined #Tunes -:- bullfrog [user5127@p53.ta5.actcom.co.il] has left #Tunes [] -:- allrage [aether@d22-089.tercero2.ucdavis.edu] has joined #Tunes -:- allrage [aether@d22-089.tercero2.ucdavis.edu] has left #Tunes [] -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) !HyrlikW:*! Nice big thunderstorm we have here in Pasadena Calif... !wichert:*! There's bound to be a thunderstorm somewhere.. glad it's not here though :) !wichert:*! There's bound to be a thunderstorm somewhere.. glad it's not here though :) !wichert:*! oops, double. sorry about that. !HyrlikW:*! KaBoom --> storm gets e-mailed to wichert. -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh7-port23.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216.164.225.138] has joined #tunes -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250126.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes good morning good afternoon, fare :) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216.164.225.244] has joined #tunes 07:30am -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216.164.225.129] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@MXCVIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- Jamesbond [jbq99@p9217.nl.wish.net] has joined #Tunes # Appears as TIKI. Hello Can somebody help me with finding some software for linux ??? 10:00am SOMEBODY HOME hello hoy, smkl -:- Jamesbond [jbq99@p9217.nl.wish.net] has left #Tunes [] -:- iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes 10:10am !mccaffrey.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT drexelhill.pa.us.opirc.nu 8005 from lilo -:- timestamp [dancer2@207.16.36.12] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (iStormy has no reason) hum hey Fare 10:40am hoy, smkl! 10:50am grr -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (away for two weeks :() * Fare/#Tunes is away (dinner) 11:10am -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: mccaffrey.openprojects.net split from koontz.openprojects.net [12:26pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [mccaffrey.openprojects.net] -:- bullfrog [bullfrog@R-G-188-107.access.net.il] has joined #Tunes -:- bullfrog [bullfrog@R-G-188-107.access.net.il] has left #Tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us229.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes people hi 02:10pm not everyone at the same time abi, xcom? xcom is, like, a portable component system used by clementine <_QZ> hello abi is a portable component system at http://xcom.tunes.org hey _QZ :) abi, xcom? i guess xcom is a portable component system used by clementine doh! <_QZ> are u trying to change the xcom definition? abi, no xcom is a portable component system at http://xcom.tunes.org okay, hcf. oh ;) * core/#tunes is not too familiar with abi abi, xcom? rumour has it xcom is a portable component system at http://xcom.tunes.org thanks hcf core: sure thing it's sparking with conversation here today :) <_QZ> yes it is qz: working on brix? <_QZ> i am anything to test anytime soon? :) (that's probably your #1 FAQ, but..) <_QZ> nope still not satisfied with it in the least bit? <_QZ> im getting there hope you'll release it before i'm too old to use computers :) <_QZ> heh i updated the xcom patches to nasm 0.98p7 and binutils 2.9.1.0.25 .. i know you don't use that (yet? :) but just mentioning it.. <_QZ> i use nasm 97 i do too, but some people (tcn comes to mind) use the pre-0.98 series he seems to think xcom would be nice as an interchange format between retro, brix and clementine <_QZ> i dont see how that would work with brix (i know you don't store objects as files proper, hence the term interchange) well, you need to transport your programs from a computer to another some way or other :) <_QZ> but not xcom 02:20pm nothing says you have to, it's just a format <_QZ> brix 'programs' wont work on any other OS but you will have to get them from another OS <_QZ> and yer programs wont work on brix <_QZ> why will i have to do that? unless you plan everyone on the internet to use brix for serving files it's not just about having them 'work' on all systems.. more like sharing compilation, linking, etc. tools <_QZ> brix has no problem getting files from the internet yes - i figured as much - but on the other end of the pipe, the server might run under another OS, therefore it might have to represent your 'programs' as files <_QZ> brix can get 'programs' as files too yes, therefore you need a file format <_QZ> why? so you can get programs as files? <_QZ> uhh you need a way to organize the program inside the file? before they get to brix and it can break them up into the various bits that make a program under brix? or did i miss something <_QZ> brix can not use any binary files so you _have_ to get the program as source? <_QZ> all code must be distributed as bytecode <_QZ> brix doesnt use source okay - that's the misunderstanding <_QZ> u cant write 'programs' in a text editor like other oses you can put bytecode in xcom files there is no requirement for binary there either <_QZ> why would i wanna do that? thats just more code i need in the brix system to get to the bytecode bytecode-as-files isn't organized in any way? <_QZ> eh? do you just throw the bytecode in a raw file? <_QZ> i guess so you don't have any initialized data or anything? what about the boot 'bricks' of your system, they obviously need to be in native code, at least memory management and the bytecode interpreter? <_QZ> in brix there are no programs, everything is written as functions. so a bytecode file contains a single function so the function can't have initialized data? 02:30pm <_QZ> the bytecode contains the api used to access it and any other information set by teh author. when the bytecode enters the brix system it will be compiled to machine code and integrated into the language what about the boot components? you can't compile the bytecode compiler with itself <_QZ> the function can have constant data embedded in the code <_QZ> the bytecode compiler and basic system functions are compiled in linux and added to the image file. so you have special cases for those.. okay <_QZ> then i just rewrite the entire system inside brix and recompile it with its compiler... i understand (still special cases for the boot components though :) <_QZ> no <_QZ> there needs to be an initial system, but after that u can rewrite everything in bytecode <_QZ> and replace that initial system yeah.. their handling is special i mean do you have a running system based on that bytecode right now? <_QZ> no just curious did you design the bytecode yet? <_QZ> sorta and as for xcom.. you could use it as a practical way of transporting thousands of bytecode function 'files' for an entire 'program' in a single file on another host OS.. just thinking is it an assembly-like bytecode a la java or a syntax tree? 02:40pm <_QZ> syntax okay, good :) <_QZ> and im really against other oses hosting brix bytecodes you could always have a look at ANDF why is that? <_QZ> because a brix system hosting the bytecode is far superior in capabilities i didn't mean running them simply transporting and manipulating them with common development tools <_QZ> no, brix-to-brix communication is superior to brix-to-other <_QZ> brix doesnt like to just transport them well, i doubt sunsite will be switching to brix or clementine or anything else anytime soon <_QZ> it wants to join with the other system you realize you have to maintain some kind of data transport compatibility? <_QZ> sunsite does not exist anymore :) well, make that metalab, i know, i have a login there <_QZ> brix is compatible with current transport protocols, but native brix-to-brix is better <_QZ> the systems can merge into a single system i understand as much.. but until brix is self-hosted and has all the nifty development tools, you may want to use a non-personal format for transport and manipulation of your 'programs' i don't make any money on xcom, it's free to use even on proprietary code, so i'm not selling it to you.. just trying to understand why it wouldn't fit <_QZ> when an initial brix system is ready i will put up a brix system to host the bytecodes <_QZ> oh and its a bitch to write brix functions in anything other than brix <_QZ> writing them in linux is a bitch i thought you used nasm <_QZ> ya im writing them in nasm <_QZ> and its a bitch why? <_QZ> because of how brix works assembler is still assembler <_QZ> nothing in brix is static so it needs to lookup everything in the language 02:50pm <_QZ> without the language i must manually map everything out and setup links well, that's linked to the language, not the host OS <_QZ> and the language cant exist without brix so i cant write the language first in linux yes, so, besides system components, the rest could be simulated in userland under, say, linux? <_QZ> nope why not? what's the management code in brix that can't be executed in userland under linux? <_QZ> its not yer conventional os <_QZ> nothing in brix is self sustaining i understood as much <_QZ> every piece requires every other piece well, i'm writing a componentized system, so i understand what you mean.. still.. you could have some 'pieces' be part of a big userland simulator in linux to which some other pieces, actual ones, the ones you're developing, attach to <_QZ> u stick related functions in modules right? <_QZ> like libc... i group related functions by functionality they can or not, be implemented in the same module (component) or a component can implement several functionalities <_QZ> i too stick everything in modules <_QZ> but modules can only be a maximum of 4meg so if a class has more than 4meg of methods then they must be split among several modules i don't have a simulator under a posixish environment yet as it was more fun to write from the ground up, but i don't see what the difficulty is to have a linux program export all the functionality normally provided by a bunch of clementine components; then regular, program components can import functionality from the simulator just like from clementine why do you have such a limit? lazy with page tables? :) <_QZ> :) <_QZ> speed page-table related tho? <_QZ> yes hehe :) well, i suppose 4M for a module is big enough i don't like arbitrary limitations like that, but i suppose it isn't really one so all modules are aligned on a 4M boundary? <_QZ> ya hmm.. that's a lot of waste of page tables? if most modules are like 10K..? <_QZ> im not using those page tables <_QZ> its just wasted page table entries i know that's what i mean.. wasted memory for a 10K module you'll allocate a 4K page table :) <_QZ> ya that means max. 1024 modules in the system using 4M of page tables when all are loaded.. :) <_QZ> but that module can be mapped into any osp fast for sure.. but is it worth the waste of ram? writing to several PTE's isn't really slow <_QZ> actually its 300 soemthing modules 03:00pm <_QZ> and its not the system i don't know, that sounds like a waste of ram <_QZ> when a module is loaded a pt is created and the module is mapped into it yeah.. that means 300 modules in memory at once <_QZ> when the module is needed by an osp (process space) the pt is added to the osp's pd <_QZ> no it means 300+ modules per osp position-independent code? oh right well, if you use position independent code, yes, 300 per osp <_QZ> but thats not all :), objects are handled the same way <_QZ> so its 300= objects or modules per osp <_QZ> s/=/+/ do you use PIC though? yeah i see <_QZ> yes <_QZ> if i load a 100 byte text file i will be using 100 + 4k even for system code? that might be much slower than the optimization you make using only 4M boundaries <_QZ> what does 4meg boundaries have to do with anything? you say you use a page table per object or module so that you don't have to fiddle with page tables much but that forces you to use position-independent code for everything if you want to maintain your 300+ limit per osp pic is sensibly slower than normal code, so i was just wondering if it's worth it <_QZ> why is it slower? hmm, cause all accesses to data, all jumps, etc, must be pc-relative? <_QZ> yes, all jumps are pc-relative <_QZ> but all data is accessed with pointers abi: core? core is back with clementine yeah, even static data.. that's lots of AGI stalls core: feel like updating that? bugger all, i dunno, hcf 03:10pm hcf: i should ;) -:- zoikmid [user4101@cx929287-a.orng1.occa.home.com] has joined #Tunes no, abi, core is developing a kernel-less, component-based OS, Clementine, and the XCOM file format (http://xcom.tunes.org) okay, core. abi,core? i guess core is developing a kernel-less, component-based OS, Clementine, and the XCOM file format (http://xcom.tunes.org) woopie :) Premature end of script headers: /home/www/www.core.netnation.org/cgi-bin/kernelver.cgi argh i should really redo my website someday i can't seem to find a minute to myself bye core: i gather theres no page for clementine yet -:- SignOff zoikmid: #TUNES (Read error to zoikmid[cx929287-a.orng1.occa.home.com]: EOF from client) hcf: no.. it's still waiting to be demilitarized :) hcf: the xcom format is a good indication of how things are structured in it.. Fare, Tril and Tom have a running copy of it.. I'll release the whole thing to everyone soon :) when u do, plz update abi's clementine factoid i will now that i know how to change records :) abi, clementine? clementine is a modular OS at http://www.core.netnation.org/ no, abi, clementine is a modular OS being written by core (core@tunes.org) okay, core. the webpage has nothing to do with it .. 03:20pm <_QZ> well when i added that it was either nokernel.org or netnation.org and since nokernel.org had absolutely nothing on it... oh, it's all good :) yeah, nokernel.org has nothing on it yet.. there are nice pages ready, as soon as it is in the DMZ i'll put them up <_QZ> does clementine have multithreading or protected memory? yes, and yes although both are optional <_QZ> how do u do that without a kernel? you have a virtual memory manager component, and a scheduler component :) both are replacable by other implementations 03:30pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216.164.225.129] has joined #tunes hi alonzo y0 :) long time no see so long in fact I've forgotten everything about you eksept yer nick yeah, i don't log on often :) =\ abi, core? somebody said core was developing a kernel-less, component-based OS, Clementine, and the XCOM file format (http://xcom.tunes.org) :) did you see my post on the tunes@tunes list? yes comments? <_QZ> but what coordinates the vmm and scheduler components? alonzo: not to sell xcom again, but you're asking for modular functionality and runtime linking, both things it does well :) oh well but how do you write the linker? alonzo: you implement the fileformat as specified.. it's very simple.. Tom did a partially functioning linker (loader, as that's what you mean) for xcom very quickly qz: a component called the dependency manager would be the closest to what you mean * AlonzoTG/#tunes is fuzzy on files... <_QZ> what handles communication? qz: the user program is ultimately what controls eveything, and components share the resources they provide on their own, but basically the depmgr is what spawns processes when components need one, after having asked a loader component to pull them into memory, etc. 03:50pm -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh2-port150.snet.net] has joined #tunes hey guys BOOF!!! y0 hey hoy, billyboof did you read my post to the tunes list? i don' <_QZ> well im gonna go swimming err <_QZ> bbl i don't get the tunes list emailing list? how do i join? -:- SignOff core: #TUNES (Ping timeout for core[core.suntech.fr]) boof: I suggested applying AI to dynamic binding... :) umm... explain a bit... i'm new to AI, and don't really know what 'binding' is... alonzo? you here still? okay you have a system lets use set theory... SYSTEM = { UI, storage, memory, CPU, ....} okay... thats a typical PC... what about a cyborg? CYBORG = { neural interface, network, storage.... } -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes So you introduce program [P] into each of those systems... ah, stupid server died what did i miss? =\ _qz: the dependency manager establishes communication. then the components communicate on their own How do you write [P] so that it runs properly in each of those configurations? i think a computer has the same set as people, just done differently 04:00pm alonzo: did you have a look at the format yet? opinion? interface, long term storage , memory , externals My solution is to have each component (drive, display, keyboard...) has some kind of knowlege database built in that actually adds to [P] what it needs to know about the configuration so it can bind to what it needs... alonzo: clementine components work that way. alonzo: well, they describe what they need, anyway. clementine is your os, right? i don't know certain terms .. bind==make use of/attach to? alonzo: yes okay... have any tekst? alonzo: xcom allows for having an 'interface' section, together with code, data etc alonzo: nothing demilitarized yet, but you can use the object format - http://xcom.tunes.org oh okay... but how will you teach quake to use your cybernetiks? alonzo: it will answer your question of how to add interface information to the program code at least. have you looked at the specs to my os yet? or my prototype... i mean the specs to my prototype... alonzo: quake would ask for a memory management component, a network component understanding IP, an input component, an output component.. and probably ask for a few characteristics in each, like, "how many visual outputs do you have" ? hmm... i say would because i haven't ported quake, but the other mentioned components work. okay... basically clementine stores all this dependency information in the interface section of an xcom file, and processes it at runtime my specs are at atc.peon.net/~cyborg/OS/docs/specs.txt yeah, i read them.. it's more a wishlist than specs though =\ ouch don't take it bad :) i just mean it's not "specs" as in API, functionality definitions and such anyway that's what I want my prototype to do... yes, hence the term 'wishlist' : :) yes I need to rewrite them... just wanted to get everything listed first... it's okay.. you probably can't write actual specifications until you experimented a bit with the system unless you're a very thoughtful programmer, and until we have a system like Tunes, you won't have final, satisfactory specs until you wrote a given thing twice. 04:10pm hehe anyway... yes? It has already helped me resolve a few issues... Now I am trying to figure out how to implement it... but i'm too lame. :(((( just go at it slowly -:- HickServ [Algernon@209.68.229.83] has joined #tunes but I need to get it done... wow all my favorite friends are here :) now whats this about ai and os's alonzo? trying to make programs able to learn about new devices... lowsy hang over i can't think oh isee that's not really AI, more like runtime binding well hick: you think you have a hang over? no... not like mine it belongs to a subschool of ai well after 6 slugs of kentucky burben and 5 of whiskey i kinda fell funny it depends what you call AI. if you call that, not having to rewrite every program every two years, yes. feel my tumy hurts hick: like 9 shots of jack daniels and a bit of opium 04:20pm :))) * AlonzoTG/#tunes doesn't dink hehehe i don't drink or smoke i don't ingest opium i only drink for pleasure now hick: don't smoke it either i suppose? i didn't by choice... it wasn't supposed to be opium... will never touch it again either... worst thing i've ever tried... heh were you fooled? was supposed to be pot... it was half and half... i kinda thought it was a bit harsh... hit me hard too ... oh i've never smoked anything other than tobacco only a little too never heard of people giving you a more expensive drug... always hear about being given sage and shit like that... hehehe lucky you i wonder what pot is like depends.... on how you feel before hand.. i really don't care to try though if you're stressed out and about to have a nervous breakdown, it could happen when you smoke... if you're relaxed, and want to be more so, you'll get completely relaxed heh i think the laws about pot should be the same as alcohol... legal, have dui laws include pot though hmmm i've gotta start planning my filesystem & binary formats... it would help the economy of my town :) hahaha i have a general idea what i'm going to do for the binarys... we have about 2 million dollars worth of pot growing here B00f: if you make progress on the binaries; tell me how you did it. =P so far have the first 2 bytes used, and that's going to say how many pages the header is... al: this is my basic plans... it's going to be really simple format... pretty powerfull though i think first word in the file will be a number saying how many pages <4k blocks> are reserved to the header... boing 04:30pm good idea why a word then it's going to have a dynamic table wait actually yeah, a dword oh hmmmmm dat be one big file so you could in theory have a 4gig header.... hehehe but it the value was 1, then the header is 4k... if it is 2, the header is 8k... of course then the header would be a table of names, types and values.... kinda like the winblows registry, but no tree... just a flat list.... alonzo: did you have a look at xcom? you didn't answer this and certain names would be reserved... like icon, bssSize, stackMax, some others... kinda like resources.... no havn't seen xcom yet... will in a few dayze... it would also tell how many pages of code... that way on load, the os could see that the first x pages were header, the next x pages are code, and the rest are data... alonzo: just curious. three OSes are going to use it as their binary format, and I hope as many as possible do, so we have a real interchange format. My OS supports everything through its modules... alonzo: so do the 3 OSes mentioned above :) it will have a posix module... =) what is posix? alonzo: xcom is a format especially designed for modularity. kool setting file format asside... I have a binarie... how do I put it into that format and subsequently into a runable immage? alonzo: you can embed code, data and interface description in the same file, and use the same linkers, etc. as clementine, retro, etc. okay... alonzo: well, for xcom, you simply link it as usual into an xcom object (like you would make an ELF, COFF, etc. program) but I don't have a linker ;(((((((( alonzo: there are patches to make ld xcom-aware. alonzo: then all you need to have is a small bit of code that looks for xcom components stored after itself in the boot image, load and start them. "small bit of code" -- okay... =\ alonzo: an xcom loader is quite simple to write. eazie for you to say... =( alonzo: no, other people say so but eye can't code... never wrote a linker... heheh alonzo: you don't have to write a _linker_ al is silly can't look at LD source because unix sucks... alonzo: you don't have to touch ld alonzo: there are patches at http://xcom.tunes.org that patch ld for you 04:40pm but i need to link stuff!!!! alonzo: and voila, you can make xcom files =\ alonzo: yes, you do, and you can use the patches at the URL above. what do you mean by "linking"? taking shit off a disk and patching it up with bindings to other things already in memory... a loader then. ld doesn't have anything to do with that, alonzo. does to... no, ld links several objects into an executable LD makes the objeckt binaries and the kernel loads them... yepers... yes I need to do both... all you need to write is the kernel loader part no yep, kernel loader... and the linker if I decide to go with a different format... right I have a few OMF compilers... now, xcom allows for OS-specific interfaces =\ it handles the 'common' details (how to organize code, data, relocation .. etc), and still lets you implement your OS interface now yeah you can either patch ld if you really want to make a proprietary format and reinvent the same handling of the same details, or go with such a format and just implement your interface part I will investigate both... probably go with the later... it's up to you, but since you said you can't figure out ld da loader is still a big issue... (indeed gnu suck bigtime at documenting the internals of their programs) xcom also has patches for nasm and gdb. alonzo: but at least you can concentrate on the loader, and the program you will have to write that translates modules interfaces into a form usable by the loader. agreed... :) you have an example of loader in the Retro code (as Clementine isn't publicly viewable yet) I'll look for it. abi, retro? retro is at http://bespin.cx/~tcn/retro.html it's in kernel/xcom.asm or something the format has been used in production for ~ 1 year so the output the tools produce are pretty much trustable could you be more specic about the universal language al? spoken or programming? either/both Lojban :) billy: this could also be of interest to you, i don't know. i haven't talked to you yet, just read the logs . 04:50pm what in particular helped you out al? in discrete mathematics sorry core: whats that? sorry i was on the other computer... xcom? billyboof: an object file format -:- Alt_127 [Delete@athe530-g093.otenet.gr] has joined #Tunes .hi is it xcom? something else?