IRC log started Tue May 4 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0504 -:- ruiner [nate@ppp183.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh7-port58.snet.net] has joined #Tunes -:- NAISH [NAISH@jovell08.euempg.uniovi.es] has joined #Tunes hi hi, NAISH could anyone help me? anybody knows the name of some spanish speaking server? 01:40am please!!! -:- NAISH [NAISH@jovell08.euempg.uniovi.es] has left #Tunes [] 01:50am hello anyone here? -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) 02:00am !driz-:*! Any form of netgod or lilo out there? -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-125-108.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes -:- Tikiman [tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU] has joined #tunes >>> Tikiman [tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU] requested VERSION from TUNES [Tikiman(tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU)] hello web people! [Tikiman(tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU)] how are you doing? [Tikiman(tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU)] blah blah blah [Tikiman(tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU)] bye now -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[client-151-200-125-108.bellatlantic.net]) [Tikiman(tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU)] The tunes web site -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) [Tikiman(tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU)] oh well, that would have been cool -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes * Tikiman/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On] hum 09:00am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-125-83.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) heheh I put quake on my old computer... it crawls! :P 09:20am -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu]) -:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ -:- SignOff Tikiman: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tikiman[mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU]) -:- Tikiman [tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ^lilo: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Tikiman: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tikiman[mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU]) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- ruiner [blah@ppp251.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #Tunes hello? hmmmm... 11:40am -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes greetings -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) 11:50am -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) om 12:10pm -:- ruiner [nate@ppp244.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes -:- little-co [_@ppp-159-27.villette.club-internet.fr] has joined #Tunes hi there!!! [little-co(_@ppp-159-27.villette.club-internet.fr)] hi tunes [little-co(_@ppp-159-27.villette.club-internet.fr)] hmm hmm... 12:40pm hi hoy, ruiner greetings abi do you like music? yes all kind of? no mostly industrial/rock neubaten? nine inch nails? sorta......yes skinny puppy is my favorite is it americain? skinny puppy? they were from canada vancouver specifically sorry, i'm french no worries can you tell me what this phrase means? masses moi les couilles it means that the one who told you that tricked u why? it means -massage- my bollocks bollocks? balls heh heh makes sense......I was picking on him at the time i try to export french culture as i can hmmmmm..... what projects are you involved in on here? couilles= balls (popular who are u 12:50pm I am me just curious....are you female? no... sorry nah...don't be sorry...I was just going to offend you if you were ;-P it's nice to write and think about someone is waiting the answer somewhere... i don't write english very well no worries vers le bas sur votre fille française de genoux babelfish is cool lyrics from a song? nope nostradamus incantation? nope what does it mean? probably not what I meant it to mean u don't know about nostradamus? yeah I do but what does what I said mean? nothing ummmm.......ok to the top on your franch girl of knees... lol I typed it into babelfish as "on your knees french girl" guess translation software still has a way to go sure.. I know how to say it in german to a german girl it actually means "siting on french girl's knees geh an deine knehen, deutsch fraulein though I think my spelling is bad but it can be usefull cultural interference... yep.....I"m gonna try it out on a friend's foreign exchange student see how hard she punches me in the face 01:00pm not agood idea I'm actually hoping she'll laugh Is she strong? Is somewhere else here? houhoou!!!!!! ummmm......I dunno how strong she is they're off doing something else let's talk about something such as? What do you think about Kosovo? the usa shouldn't be involved Where do you come from? the usa USA should involve fully or not shouldn't be involved at all the serbians aren't a threat to us, and we're violating the soverignity of their country Agree, Europe should be fully involved. a very imperialistic attitude me? no......the usa agree to keep interfering in the affairs of other countries The people from Kosovo are paying for lack of strategy yeah and the kicker is that.....well.......lets put it this way.....if you were a kosovar...would you rather be one 2 weeks before nato involvement or a week ago? Do you think Europe should involve? not really...... let them sort it out themselves offer advice.....offer aid.....sell them weapons.....help with strategy...but don't fight their war for them How could they go back? explain what you mean 01:10pm how could kosovars go home without us? well they can't now they can't with us we won't commit to ground troops....which will be neccessary maybe... so basically.....we screwed them over by supposedly trying to help them you mean by rescue them in our countries? I'm not for bringing them here either difficult problem... What is the american opinion? =\ damn mess wish we never got involved... you are involved... depends on who you ask everyone the thing about america is that most people aren't informed as to the facts....they just choke down what the media tells them and follows blindly then there are those of us who find out what is really going on a little bit like in france mon petit monsieur eh? nothing so you only like industrial music? well.....I consider prick and manson to be rock and roll..... metallica too do you know shellac? fugazi? nope and I hate fugazi hou hou ! why? just do 01:20pm good answer -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250102.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey salut, tcn What do you think about american movies (to save the world) hou hou what do you think about french people? oh I think they're smelly bastards! jk :) what's up? up is, like, above down shut up abi! abi, what are you? i am probably the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik I don't like french people in general individuals ......yeah.....they can be very nice, polite, sweet people.....but overall.....I say nuke 'em heh.. german girls punch hard do they? guess I"d better make sure I'm wearing my running shoes 01:30pm then you'll get kicked in the butt :) -:- SignOff little-co: #TUNES (Ping timeout for little-co[ppp-159-27.villette.club-internet.fr]) I might enjoy that cool, I see you guys were talking about the war yeah french can really kook! What I don't understand is, Turkey kills Kurds, and we give them guns. Serbia kills Kosovars, and we bomb them. Huh? ask clinton we let iraq beat the hell out of the kurds too I have doubts about how bad the Serbs were *really* treating the Kosovars.. same here For them to run away without fighting doesn't make sense I hear that actually what they'd do is just walk into a town.....fire some shots in the air...pull people out of their houses....and let them run away I've heard some kosovars are complaining that NATO caused the exodus they certainly made it worse you know what the estimated death count was before nato intervened? nope about 2000 know what it is now? a lot yep 01:40pm We really look like assholes now :) They release our prisoners, and we bomb them harder we are assholes think of it they're in the middle of a civil war (of sorts) probably one of the easiest civil wars ever as far as loss of life we pick the bigger side.....and decide we don't like them.....and start bombing them they've gotta be like "what the fuck!?!" imagine if when we were in the middle of our civil war if all of a sudden the russians started beating on the north hehe Didn't France give us a little help in the Revolution? (but nothing huge, like invading england) they were at war with them at the time I think otherwise we'd all still be giving homage to the queen mother om :\ There are a total of 3 neurons inside the beltway... yep well I don't think stupid is the word for US politicians more like EVIL not completely true they gotta be up to no good if they're going around starting wars as part of their secret agenda 01:50pm think about it... how many neurons do you need to be a politician? Yes we should bomb some second world country... U just hafto press this little button to vote... no we shouldn't lower taxes... Yes we should infringe on personal rights... :/ yeah, cameras everywhere, tap everyone's phone, ban encryption use retina identification for everything or iris patterns -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (phone) gotta go later all om! :) om? something tril doesn't want me to say in here... :P ok later -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) 02:00pm -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250109.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes wb hey, did you try compiling retro? 02:10pm nope... I've beeen reeedin some stufff good, cause it doesn't work in DOS yet :) dufrp got it working, though 02:20pm -:- ^ZERO_COOL^ [Imax@dialup-35.tnt-1.tol.glasscity.net] has joined #Tunes -:- ^ZERO_COOL^ [Imax@dialup-35.tnt-1.tol.glasscity.net] has left #Tunes [] -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (phone) -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- toddg [toddg@ts001d12.har-pa.concentric.net] has joined #Tunes hello everyone! -:- toddg [toddg@ts001d12.har-pa.concentric.net] has left #Tunes [Bye] 03:20pm -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250113.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes gakuk, tcn! hey, fare! I got Retro to compile under DOS :) under DOS??? yeah, dufrp uses it * Fare/#Tunes tries to recall prehistorical remembrances atg and nef use it, too 03:40pm what's the status of a write floppy driver? oh, it still doesn't work on my laptop, and I still haven't looked at why so floppy writes won't be hard, but I'm doing multitasking first but it reboots after writing the boot loader message Gotta get you a French keymap, too :) * Fare/#Tunes admits he's been a lazy bum last week, playing nethack instead of doing things hehe * Fare/#Tunes admits that after installing debian (insteadq of redhat), I am re-writing my meta-/etc scripts in guile (instead of zsh calling sed and perl) So do you use a dog or a cat? I use a master lich and an umber hulk the master lich keeps my enemies busy, and the umber hulk simplifies the maze ever play Angband? nope nethack is enough of a time waster now that I could get away from playing it, don't tempt me with other stuff! it would be cool if nethack/angband was multiplayer there used to be a big BBS here that had multiplayer text adventures oh, wait, that's what MUD's are, oh yeah :) 03:50pm hum. My new scheme-based meta-/etc will also be an experiment for the high-level interface to a persistent store (with a stupid kind of undump-at-boot and dump-at-quit kind of persistence, but with atomicity ensured) meta-/etc? You mean it generates stuff for /etc? (well, atomicity assuming the manual "locking" is respected) tcn: sure, it genereates stuff for /etc the problem is: my laptop is sequentially connected to lots of different networks and everytime I switch network, everything needs be reconfigured, from ifconfig and route to ftp, http, telnet and pop proxies plus every firewalled network has its own "features" and sometimes, I need to use fwprc to go through the firewalls hey, after I add multitasking and an IDE driver, I'm gonna add real persistent storage 04:00pm btw, the retro CVS has util/Makefile wrong -- tries to compile adjustboot instead of adjboot shall I commit my corrected Makefile? I fixed it it ain't fixed on cvs update <_QZ> bastards hahah I just updated, still not fixed QZ: yes? <_QZ> i just bought 20 cdr disks and they only gave me 19 ahah Buy 20 get -1 free <_QZ> heh piracy is EVIL Fare: I think CVS screwed up. I fixed util/Makefile the other day. Fare: rename it, and update... I guess that would work :) <_QZ> im not pirating anything <_QZ> buying a game and making copies for all the computers i own isnt illegal :) <_QZ> ppl look at ya like yer stupid when u buy 5 copies of a game 04:10pm rename which? Fare: util/Makefile maybe it didn't update, because you modified it QZ: software hoarding is EVILer, anyway tcn: anyway, now I got a bunch of updated files. yup hum. Unix time is EVIL. Now you can set your keyboard type in the 'options' file You cannot code a correct time routine, least your computer can guess when in the future will leap seconds be introduced!!!! tcn: will that get me a french keyboard??? Fare: sorry, just US and dvorak for now :( I'm just gonna wait till I update the kbd driver to handle French.. qz, does brix have a french kbd driver? tcn: can you write a loadkeys file parser for retro? or otherwise hack loadkeys(8) or xmodmap to dump retro keymaps? Fare: yeah, that's the plan 04:20pm time in Tunes should be either a day-and-time-of-day description, or a computer-dependent timestamp as opposed to..? -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-017.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes to number-of-seconds-since-epoch, which depends on knowledge of legal leap seconds Hello all oh, however, internal time should be in number-of-ticks-since-epoch hey beholder so there are two not-completely-faithfully-interoperable time types in the system hey tcn any news on unios? :) I'm trying to work out some objects for prototyping what kind of objects? The generic hardware abstracts (which ones, what methods, what attributes)... pretty much everything I have an idea of which ones, and how to prototype them, just trying to work out some details Anyone have any ideas? 04:30pm tcn: the problem with implementing a multithreaded language with shared data, is: either the default memory allocation is for shared things, which is slow and expensive, or it is with for unshared things, and you force the user to manage sharing manually Beholder: I'd rather go the other way round: define what you need at the high-level, and encode the hardware abstracts accordingly tcn is doing the "hardware concretes", so he's got no such problem Fare: Sounds good, I'll try it that way Fare: what multithreaded lang? what are you referring to? I'm lost the tunes hll, for instance I want parallel programming in the language itself because it makes lots of things simpler, and allows background services to be written in the language itself (as opposed to forking whole virtual machines for every background service) Fare: That makes sense, that was one of the things I wanted for UniOS objects... do you think the Object Oriented Paradygm is well suited for parallel processing? Beholder: you know what Fare thinks about OOP I know of no Object Oriented Paradigm. That is, in computer science, as opposed to computer marketing if you mean the Actors paradigm, then the answer is of course yes (actors are intrinsically parallel!) Fare: Sorry :) Actors Paradigm then :) Fare: Actors? That sounds more like OO Design from my System's method class 04:40pm B: uh? Actors were the objects within a business. It was a book on implementing large scale business systems, and it went into Relational modeling, and Object Oriented modeling. It just sounded like the same thing you were talking about oh, most people developing actors have accepted to abide by the OO buzzwords actually, they invented quite some of those buzzwords, before they were so they invented the real stuff behind "OO" I never knew it before it was OO, so that unfortunatly is the only way I know to express the concepts. So is actor theory the way that you envision Tunes? no it's going to be based on Design Patterns definitely "Design Patterns" is mostly stuff by "OO" pundits to cope with the lack of reflection of their stupid languages hehe 04:50pm How do design patterns allow reflection? in a real language, any pattern should be expressible internally as some function or metafunction. Beholder: Design patterns is bullshit :) Beholder: they don't. Reflection allows design patterns. I just saw it mentioned (in a bad way) on the Review page :) * Fare/#Tunes was appalled by the bullshit level of Design Pattern web pages and books sounds like something they'd teach in the CS dept at the local colleges looks like the usual OO crap at unusually high concentrations. Maybe above the lethal doses of toxicity. Tunes is leaning toward functional programming, right? I may be still a little lost on the terminology.... how does it work, practically? What does it do, and is there still the concept of "programs" on an "OS"? Do not expose innocent minds to such things, least you'll cripple them irreversibly. tcn: if by "functional", you mean that higher-order functions will be first-class, then sure. Beholder: if you take it the way I use the term in papers/WhyNewOS/, then yes, of course, there will be an OS. Beholder: if by program you mean code that compute things, of course, there will be programs. if by programs, you mean a coarse grained thing that runs in its own VM, then no, there won't be, at least, not in native user-visible mode. Fare: I mean programs are a distinct entity that is composed of many other pieces of code, that are used to perform a specific function (display a screen, wait for input, respond... etc) Beholder: Persistent Storage will be a noticeable feature of Tunes there will be no distinction between files and variables All I'm really wondering, is how different it will be to the end user? Beholder: maybe you mean something like "object" or "functions" Beholder: of course, there will be "objects" and/or "functions" to implement functionality. Beholder: ever used a HP28 or HP48 calculator? Hmmm.... nope I got an idea.. A "function" (like in C) will be the same thing as a program. well, you define variables, and they stay here tcn: NOT like in C. Like in LISP. (or Scheme, or ML) 05:00pm Hmm... So varibles are persistent entities? What would be the use? Beholder: like, save 95% of programming time how much time do you spend managing files? Tons... way too much yeah, files are *the* main impediment to programming opening, unmarshalling, marshalling, closing, error-handling, locking, etc so persistent storage takes care of that crap once & for all. yup although, since the system is reflective, those who still want to do it manually can. but 99% of people who don't want, can avoid to. So all umm... Actors can access any other Actors's method or data simply by making a reference to it?, no file access required? maybe if you were writing a super-high-performance database you'd bypass persistent storage the HP had a simple way of being persistent: being battery backed-up, and having a language that was strongly typed file? what's that? under Tunes, files don't exist, except for foreign-OS-interface. fare, isn't there a high-level interface between 'actors'? So everything is simply a variable of some sort? basically every actor is an interface!!! no, everything is an object of some sort. Variables are just bindings from names to objects. and having "objects" doesn't mean we're object-oriented. I'd rather those "OO" people have a clue (and be clue-oriented?). No OO, I think I understand it now. It seems very... simple.... almost wonder why no one else did it yet. 05:10pm oh, some did. But never as a full out OS? never as a full free software OS. Commercial? *proprietary*, not *commercial*. commercial is good. proprietary is evil. hum. DT betrayed FT. I work at FT. So where'd you find out about the proprietary systems that use this concept? also, an old East-German system had this feature, down in 1980 and Scottish researchers have had research systems with orthogonal persistence for almost as long, too 1980?! Damit DOS was created around that time... and it was terrible in concept... proprietary system: ones written at Xerox What did Xerox do with them, and why don't they try to develop them to a commercial type system? notably by Boehm, author of the conservative GC for C/C++, that was an off-spring of that experience) they did develop a commercial system, but like all other Xerox innovations, it ended in a basket somewhere, to be used by others.