IRC log started Wed Jan 20 00:00:02 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0120
ωνω ultima [ultima@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes
ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (changing servers)
ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes
ωνω dagsgdasd [s720@tege.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes
<Fare> hi
<dagsgdasd> hi
<Fare> TMF!
<abi> hoy, dagsgdasd
<dagsgdasd> yeah, always someone nicking my favourite nick!
<Fare> :)
<Fare> you can reserve nicks with nickserv, if it's not too late...
<dagsgdasd> ok
<dagsgdasd> \nickserv thomas
<Fare> hum. brb.
<dagsgdasd> what's the agenda?
<Fare> mine is 1) finish the Reflection'99 article due Feb1st 2) read my 120+ backlogged mail about Tunes (including TML)
10:10am
<dagsgdasd> I just quit school. I'm on wellfare - but 120 tunes mails are nice too!
<Fare> what's your final diploma?
<dagsgdasd> I'm 80% towards a cand mag ( lower degree I guess ). It's not a permanent quitting, just a little break - to motivate:)
<Fare> have you shown what you're doing to professors at uni?
<Fare> what's a cand mag?
10:20am
<dagsgdasd> cand.mag is about 3 and a half years. I have had some discussions about TML but there is always alot of "what is it"'s and "why"'s. Something which TOOL is a good example of, but I haven't gotten to give a full demonstation yet.
<Fare> have you read BC Smith's POPL'84 article about Reflection?
<Fare> or one of the many articles that follow it?
<dagsgdasd> no
<dagsgdasd> all my reading has been school related until now. I hope, beeing able to focus fully on TML/TOOL, will let me dwelm deeper into what other people have done and thought. Until now, I haven't had the oportunity to do that. Because there have been eighter school or hobby, and no real time to follow possible interesting dead ends:)
10:30am
<Fare> :)
<Fare> well, if you have comments on my previous paper, they will be most welcome.
<Fare> btw, can you quickly explain to me the evaluation mechanism for TML?
<Fare> what are the basic data structures?
<dagsgdasd> terms are defined by macros
<dagsgdasd> they are macros in the macro preprosessor like interpretation of the word
<dagsgdasd> but they can be redefined
<Fare> is that string manipulations???
<dagsgdasd> it's a rewrite system. a macro name is replaced by its definition, as if they were the same
<dagsgdasd> the magic is the () and <>
<dagsgdasd> where ( ... ) means to reread the "result" of what's in the ()
<dagsgdasd> like an "eval" mechanism
<dagsgdasd> the <>'s are used to "send" a message. this message is the result
10:40am
<Fare> is that string-based?
<dagsgdasd> well, in a way that there are only strings/text that is process at any time
<dagsgdasd> but strings are not a "datatype"
<Fare> ouch. Sounds like m4.
<Fare> do you have a proper quoting mechanism, at least?
<Fare> how do you achieve state sharing?
<dagsgdasd> what's a quoting mechanism?
<dagsgdasd> ( it's not like m4 :)
<dagsgdasd> state sharing? ()'s also controls scope. so that redifining something inside ()'s does not effect the outside of the ().
10:50am
<dagsgdasd> to effect the outside scope, you send "messages", like '<[ m a ]
<dagsgdasd> >
<dagsgdasd> '
<Fare> what's (:< >:) ?
<Fare> the docs isn't precise enough.
<dagsgdasd> I's a way to "catch" an arbitrary value. (:<dill>:) translates directly to '[ _value <..> ]'
<Fare> the concept looks quite interesting.
<Fare> I'm trying to understand how it differs from, say, SELF
<Fare> which value?
<dagsgdasd> '_value' is an internal. The reason that the translation diagrams are not included in the docs, is because they are not fixed yet. I'm working on a smoother TOOL:)
<Fare> oh
<dagsgdasd> self is implemented differently. they need primitive functionallity to make it all work. By using TML, I can desing languages that are completely reflective, like TOOL.
<Fare> uh, you still need primitives -- like _value
<dagsgdasd> it's not a primitive, it's a macro. It's just that it is on the meta level side of a bootstrap
<Fare> not sure how deep the difference is
11:00am
<Fare> how do you emulate lambdas in TML?
<dagsgdasd> '_value' is a macro, consistently with TML, but TOOL is a system in which things are objects, not macro. So when emulating TOOL on TML, I don't want TOOL in itself to be dependent on the way it is emulated - so some things are internal.
<dagsgdasd> to emulate lambdas, the natrual thing might be to build it as a set of TOOL classes.
<Fare> ouch
<dagsgdasd> ouch, what?
<dagsgdasd> you want lambdas to come prior to oo, right?
<Fare> not forcibly,
11:10am
<Fare> but to have a simple translation.
<dagsgdasd> how do you regard the falure/sucess ratio of TML/TOOL?
<dagsgdasd> as in what do you really think of it?
<Fare> well, I haven't had the time to looko at it closely.
<Fare> I'd like to see a more formal presentation of it
<Fare> of the programming model, independently from the string-based implementation
<Fare> have you ever read formal presentations of the lambda-calculus, or other simple computational systems?
<dagsgdasd> I've just had a cource in formal languages. We talked about mostly about machines and automatas, but also about recursive functions.
<dagsgdasd> ( I'll be back in a jiffy )
ωνω SignOff dagsgdasd: #TUNES (Leaving)
11:20am
ωνω s720 [s720@tordivel.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes
<s720> ( and five minutes :)
<Fare> :)
ωνω binEng [bineng@dialup154-1-25.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes
<binEng> hey
<Fare> yeh!
11:30am
<binEng> I know this sounds vague... but I'm buying books online now, and I'm kinda wondering if anyone got any tips on essential books.
<Fare> on what subject, having what background?
<Fare> Are you good at maths? If yes, get SICP
<Fare> do you like philosophy? if yes, get GEB
<Fare> want to learn LISP implementation? if yes, get LiSP
<Fare> wanna understand OO? Maybe the book by Abadi&Cardelli
<binEng> how do you define "good at maths"? know much or east to learn?
<binEng> s/east/easy/
<Fare> well, SICP is good if you've taken science majors until your 20, say.
<Fare> undergrad?
<binEng> what's it about?
<binEng> to take it from the beginning; most techical computer-related subjects, and no stupid "for dummies" books...
<binEng> undergrad, yes
<Fare> see the FAQ for comp.lang.{lisp,scheme,functional} for books
<binEng> what is SICP about? Maths is still a rather broad area.
<Fare> SICP is about programming
<Fare> but it helps a lot, if you know what a logarithm is, what a linear algebra is, etc
11:40am
<binEng> sure I do
<binEng> what's its real name?
<Fare> Review/Languages.html#SICP
<binEng> whadda say, paper or thread?
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Just a reminder---Open Projects Net is looking for a host on a fast, multi-homed Internet connection in Europe for a new European hub.  Please inquire on #openprojects.  Thanks.
<Fare> uh?
11:50am
<binEng> the book, SICP, I can choose between paperback and thread. I don't know these stuff very good in English, but thread is a hard cover, no?
<Fare> I guess so
<Fare> I got paperback, and it's fragile
<binEng> k
<binEng> I guess it's good enough to spend a few extra bucks on.
<binEng> that GEB book, then. Tell me about it.
12:00pm
<Fare> Goedel, Escher, Bach by D. Hofstader
<Fare> a must-read!
<binEng> if you say so
<Fare> (well, if you care about reflection, that is)
<Fare> there must be good books about lambda-calculus, too.
<binEng> is "Hofstader" correctly spelled?
<Fare> Douglas
<binEng> I can't find it
<binEng> anything on data structures?
<Fare> how that, data structures? You mean, efficient algorithms?
<Fare> well, there are a bunch of books, but I haven't read any, so I can't give advice.
12:10pm
<binEng> I was mostly thinking of tries... I've gotta learn 'em.
<Fare> a classic book is by Aho?, Ullmann, etc.
<Fare> a great classic is tAoCP by don Knuth
<Fare> I've seen good books in french
<Fare> there's a recent book about Purely functional data structures or such
<binEng> french books won't make me much happier :)
<Fare> gotta go, sorry
<binEng> k
<binEng> cya
π Fare/#Tunes is away food
<binEng> tnx
12:20pm
ωνω SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net
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π Fare/#Tunes is back
ωνω SignOff s720: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<Tril> Fare do you know how to load a file in gcl?
03:10pm
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
<Fare> fsdoisdfg<sdfg<h
03:20pm
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<Fare> !
<Fare> sweety is down again
<Fare> happily, it ain't www.tunes.org anymore!
05:30pm
<Tril> haha
<Tril> dumb sysadmin running mp3s.. what do they expect
05:40pm
<Fare> anything noteworthy?
<Fare> else, I'll goto sleep...
<Fare> well, good night, then!
ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Back to the Tunes OS project -- /whowas Fare)
<Tril> good you do that!! :)
05:50pm
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ωνω ultima [ultima@209.86.91.238] has joined #Tunes
ωνω ultima is now known as ultima_
<_QZ> jesus
<_QZ> i dropped my email address many many months ago due to spam on it
<_QZ> and i just reactivated it and all the mailing lists i was on are still sending to it
<tcn> haha
<tcn> what about the spam?
<_QZ> only about 1 or 2 a day
<tcn> spammers should be shot
<_QZ> was at 5-10 a day
<_QZ> between my 2 active email addresses i get about 4 a day
<tcn> They haven't got my current address yet
<_QZ> i need to setup 4 email addresses and tell everyone that i will cycle them every 3 months
07:20pm
ωνω rend [\n@dialin1052.computron.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> Get 12: _qz_jan, _qz, feb ...
<rend> I made a program the fulfills all the tunes specs.
<_QZ> tcn: hahah
<rend> anyone want the code?
<_QZ> rend: thats all that tunes is
<tcn> You what?
<abi> You are much more productive when you don't have to even *think* about placing icons on my desktop
<rend> qz: no, I really wrote tunes.
<tcn> who are you, rend?
<_QZ> rend: no, tunes is really just a program not an os
<ultima_> Rend is full of shit
<rend> of course I am.
<_QZ> rend: tunes is like forth, just more complicated
<ultima_> =)
<tcn> exactly :)
<_QZ> and forth can be the OS or  program in another OS
<rend> tell me why netscape only got like 3 billion.
<rend> and in that deal aol got, web servers, browser, portal.
<rend> @home gets ripped off, 6.7 bill for excite.
<rend> all you get is one domain name.
<rend> and one search engine.
<_QZ> rend: but aol is gonna let sun have the web servers/browser for free
<tcn> I still can't believe someone would pay billions for a stupid little software company
<rend> qz: not for free
<tcn> that just started yesterday
<_QZ> tcn: netscape started the web
<rend> qz: they are able to resell it.
<ultima_> _QZ: Hell no
<tcn> qz: Some guy at CERN started it
<ultima_> _QZ: Mosaic was the first real graphical browser
<ultima_> Netscape royally fudged the web
<rend> damn.
<_QZ> mosaic was made by netscape
<ultima_> _QZ: Wrong
<rend> qz: no
<tcn> hehe
<_QZ> yes
<rend> qz: you are a dumbarse
<ultima_> _QZ: Mosaic was made by UIUC
<_QZ> they all made mosaic at uiuc and then started netscape
<ultima_> _QZ: No
<_QZ> yes
<tcn> Didn't the people who wrote Mosaic start Spyglass?
<_QZ> no
<tcn> And Netscape was the outgrowth of some other browser?
<ultima_> tcn: yes
<tcn> like...?
<ultima_> tcn: Netscape was the outgrowth of mosaic
<ultima_> like spyglass
<ultima_> they were both commercializations of Mosaic, and both companies had original mosaic developers
<tcn> I used to use the ancestor of Lynx :)
<_QZ> netscape navigator was made by the same ppl that made mosaic
<ultima_> _QZ: Nah
<_QZ> navigator = mosaic II
<ultima_> _QZ: It was made by a couple of the same people and a hell of a lot more
<_QZ> ultima_: u wanna bet on it?
<_QZ> ultima_: if im right u never come back to this channel
<_QZ> ultima_: and if im wrong i wont come back
<ultima_> _QZ: Some people at uiuc wanted to make a profit off of it so they took it and mozilla'd it
<rend> qz: shut the hell up
<rend> qz: go buy nerds 2.01 from pbs or some shit
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<_QZ> ultima_: and if im right u take rend with u :)
<tcn> hahahahaha
<_QZ> ultima_: u wanna bet?
<ultima_> _QZ: Bet on what?
<_QZ> ultima_: i will go find urls that prove im right
<ultima_> _QZ: And what is your overgeneralized statement?
<tcn> http://www.qzx.com/netscape.html
<ultima_> _QZ: Your statement is flawed. It is not totally incorrect, and is a broad generalization
<_QZ> the ppl responsible for mosaic started netscape
<tcn> How much did Infoseek sell for?
<ultima_> _QZ: Not all of them dude
<ultima_> _QZ: Your statement assumes mosaic becamse netscape, which is false
<_QZ> the main ones
<ultima_> _QZ: Some of the mosaic developers begun a commercial venture based on mosaic
07:30pm
<_QZ> i never said mosaic became netscap
<_QZ> i said netscape started the web
<_QZ> cuz the ppl that made netscape made mosaic
<tcn> A couple years ago my aunt introduced me to this professor she works with, who was working on indexed searching.. then he started infoseek, didn't give the college a dime, and sold it to disney for a few billion..
<ultima_> _QZ: Er, actually, netscape was based on Mosaic
<_QZ> netscape the company not browser
<_QZ> er the ppl at the company
<ultima_> _QZ: Your statements are too general! 
<ultima_> _QZ: The people who wrote basic started microsoft
<_QZ> the ppl that started netscape, the company, started the web
<ultima_> _QZ: The people who wrote unix started novell
<tcn> Hey, I used the web long before netscape was around
<tcn> Netscape only popularized it
<ultima_> _QZ: And no, netscape, the company, nor mosaic the browser, truly started the web, there were textmode browsers long before ns/mosaic
<_QZ> actually gates reipped off basic
<_QZ> ripped
<tcn> He ripped off DR-DOS too
<ultima_> _QZ: no, he ripped off QDOS. Actually, Paul Allen did write a basic interpreter that he sold
<_QZ> did the web exist prior to mosaic?
<ultima_> _QZ: yes
<tcn> qz: yeah
<tcn> There was lynx
<_QZ> wrong
<ultima_> tcn: www!
<ultima_> dont forget www, the one and only linemode browser1 =)
<tcn> heh
<tcn> I don't remember that one :)
<ultima_> aww
<ultima_> Hehe it was cool
<tcn> I had one called Hybrow.. hypertext browser. It was before www, though.
<tcn> So wtf does netscape do, to be worth $4b?
<ultima_> tcn: userbase
<ultima_> tcn: Also, MS couldnt buy out NS, so they got their bed buddies to do it =)
<tcn> I'm not gonna use Netscape now that they sold out to AOL
<tcn> :0
<tcn> :)
<ultima_> what hte fuck
<ultima_> why is pdflatex putting this bookmark on the wrong page
07:40pm
ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> Hey hcf
<hcf> hoy tcn
<tcn> Tunes isn't so busy anymore :)
<hcf> ur happy about that?
<tcn> As long as it doesn't die, yes
<tcn> I guess college is catching up with everyone. Me, I just started yesterday
<_QZ> tunes is dying
<_QZ> brix is killing it
<_QZ> i have all the time and resources needed to develop brix
<hcf> meaning it
<hcf> 'll be done in 9yrs
<_QZ> nono
<hcf> s/done/released/
<_QZ> i have been working for the last several days on it
<_QZ> i plan on releasing it before win2000
<tcn> what's win2000 supposed to be?
<_QZ> uhh
<_QZ> nt5
<tcn> "You need this to ease the transistion to NT"
<_QZ> win2000 is 5 oses
<_QZ> to replace win98, nt4 workstation and server and 2 others
<ultima_> _QZ: BRiX and FBSD?
<_QZ> win2000 is nt5
<_QZ> no more running dos apps on windows
<_QZ> ultima_: no
<_QZ> the 5 flavors of win2000 are all identical, M$ justs increases values as the flavor price inscreases
<_QZ> just like how nt4 workstation and server are identical. server can just handle alot more connections then workstation cuz M$ limited ws to 10 connections
08:00pm
<tcn> what are the "2 others"?
<tcn> DOS and win95?
<tcn> Xenix?
08:10pm
<_QZ> shutup
<_QZ> they have taken win98,nt4ws and nt4server and broken them into 5 flavors
<_QZ> idiot home user, smarter (but still an idiot) home user, stupid emloyee user, lame server and high-end server
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08:30pm
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0121
IRC log ended Thu Jan 21 00:00:01 1999